Gamey allie attack force for 3000 points

[Scheer]

Dear CM addicts,

in a purely gamey context : I play missions against an old friend of mine, he plays always the germans, leaving me my beloved allies.

After three missions, he leeds by 9 points.

In this mission I have an Oct 44, 3000 points, all is possible, village, medium map, day, damp, 25 turns attack to do.

I´ve bought 8 Churchill VIII, 8 Churchill VII, 8 Wasps and a polish paratrooper platoon plus one piat and one sniper.

I´ve tried the Cromwell, M4´s, Comets, M18 ´s but they are easy prey for his masses of Hetzer.

So I think Churchill´s are the way to go.

Any comments ? :confused:

[hitlers underpants]

ive had gone with a couple of mortar teams,they are great at killing the open top hetzers,those church 8s should be fine against his armor ,keep em in 3s,and try to flank either side to catch his armor in the middle,keep those wasps hidden well out of sight till ur sure his armor and AT units have been eliminated,or else u will be in a whole world of hurt!!!!!!! ps...id have gone 4 a bit more inf myself,and knocked the churc v1s on the head... .oh pps.keep those wasps buttoned because i casualty in ur crew and the flamethrower will not work,so u would be toothless!!!

[ June 11, 2002, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: hitlers underpants ]

[Redwolf]

Buying all M8 HMC works against Hetzers, too.

VT arty can be used for buttoning them. A little expensive, but job well done.

[PiggDogg]

Scheer & Redwolf,

Depending on how gamey your 3000 pt CM game shall be, if you can mix Brit tanks with American arty & infantry, might I suggest that you buy 3 to 4 regular Ami 155 FOs. They have a 2 minutes targeting time (which, if the FOs don't move, translates to 2 to 3 minutes target time & that is just great).

Shoot these sweeties spotted at your friend's Hetzers. As these 155s land nearby to the Hetzers, they should kill a few and definitely button them up. Also, these 155s will for sure slaughter his infantry & guns. Remember, always shoot spotted, never ever unspotted, and parcel the 155 shells our carefully.

Redwolf's M8 HMC suggestion might be good. However, if your pal covers his flanks well, these M8 HMC may die.

To tell you the truth, I really don't know a for sure counter to hull down Hetzers and PzIV/70s. If well hull down, with additional armor sloping due to up slope positioning, & secure flanks, Hetzers & PzVI/70s will bounce 95Cs & 17 lbers.

Someone help me on this one.

Cheers, Richard

[ June 11, 2002, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ]

[winkelried]

Maybe a 81mm mortar FO or even 81mm/60mm mortars could help too: lay a smokescreen to move in with your tanks and zooks or make the panzerjägers move to expose flanks.

The M-20 is a cool thing too - i just got one of my hetzers killed by such a damn thing attacking from behind.

[Austrian Strategist]

Buy a ton of Infantry, and flood him.

Infantry is most cost-effective, and Hetzers are not that great against it.

1500pts Infantry, 1000pts Tank Destroyers -keep in reserve until enemy armour shows up- and 500 pts of whatever you like best should do the job. :cool:

[xerxes]

no, no, no.

Here's the shingle.

Go british. They talk cool.

Buy a glider batallion, heck make it two. Make them green.

Buy 10 wasps. (green)

Buy 10 mmg. (conscript, what the heck, they're bait anyways)

Buy enough universal carriers to carry your piats.

Flood one flank with 30+ universal carrier look alikes, lead with the mmgs. Send a batallion of infantry with the horde of locusts. Run over and kill everything.

He'll never know what hit him.

[hitlers underpants]

hi xerxes,didnt the historical king xerxes of persia kill himself while fleeing from the enemy!!!,suicide,just like ur above strategy,if his opponent is well set up,and knows how to cover his flanks,ur dead....

[Scheer]

Guys,

Thanks for all the contributions. I´ve tested artillery before. Used three british 5.5 against his Hetzers. Result was not very satisfactory. Two Hetzers dead, one gun damage, one immobile.

But now, after I send my setup to my archenemy ,

I´´m thinking that I had better be of, with only

fourteen Churchill VII and VIII and only seven wasps. For the saved points I could have bought three 81mm mortar FO´s.

And then try that smokescreen thing ...

[Austrian Strategist]

Originally posted by xerxes:

no, no, no.

Here's the shingle.

Go british. They talk cool.

Buy a glider batallion, heck make it two. Make them green.

Buy 10 wasps. (green)

Buy 10 mmg. (conscript, what the heck, they're bait anyways)

Buy enough universal carriers to carry your piats.

Flood one flank with 30+ universal carrier look alikes, lead with the mmgs. Send a batallion of infantry with the horde of locusts. Run over and kill everything.

He'll never know what hit him.

Too complicated, and too risky.

Here´s what you buy, if you know what is good for you:

3x Rifle44 Company (Regular)

2x Bazooka (Regular)

7x M18 Hellcat (Veteran)

2x Artillery 105mm (Regular)

Advance everything except Hellcats cautiously towards Victory Flags. Spread them somewhat, so his Artillery can´t hit everybody at once. Where you find enemies, overwhelm them with numbers, or drop Artillery on them.

When his Hetzers appear, rush out your Cats with 'Hunt', and kill them.

[Austrian Strategist]

Originally posted by Scheer:

But now, after I send my setup to my archenemy , I´´m thinking that I had better be of, with only fourteen Churchill VII and VIII and only seven wasps. For the saved points I could have bought three 81mm mortar FO´s.

And then try that smokescreen thing ...

You are too infatuated with vehicles; they aren´t cost-effective. If he uses lots of AT Guns, you are dead. Try Infantry. (If you don´t, I think you will rue it.)

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Austrian Strategist:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scheer:

But now, after I send my setup to my archenemy , I´´m thinking that I had better be of, with only fourteen Churchill VII and VIII and only seven wasps. For the saved points I could have bought three 81mm mortar FO´s.

And then try that smokescreen thing ...

You are too infatuated with vehicles; they aren´t cost-effective. If he uses lots of AT Guns, you are dead. Try Infantry. (If you don´t, I think you will rue it.) </font>

[Austrian Strategist]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

He shouldn't have problems with non-Pak43/long 88mm AT guns if he's rolling the thick Churchills, they bounce short 75mm fire (prolly not Panther fire).

True, true. But he seems to be playing a vily opponent. And with 2.000pts you can afford a coupla 88 Flaks. I never leave home without them.

[Soddball]

If your opponent loves Hetzers, play in damp or wet terrain with moderate trees and moderate hills. Hetzer's got narrow tracks and is a hog to use in the wet.

Then pick groups of four or more tanks with high speed turrets and flank him en masse. Crispy hetzer death.

Edit: Forgot to add - a good aid in this situation is an 81mm mortar spotter laying smoke. You can use this to hide a fast tank rush from the view of some of his vehicles.

[ June 12, 2002, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Soddball ]

[Scheer]

Originally posted by Austrian Strategist:

Too complicated, and too risky.

Here´s what you buy, if you know what is good for you:

3x Rifle44 Company (Regular)

2x Bazooka (Regular)

7x M18 Hellcat (Veteran)

2x Artillery 105mm (Regular)

Advance everything except Hellcats cautiously towards Victory Flags. Spread them somewhat, so his Artillery can´t hit everybody at once. Where you find enemies, overwhelm them with numbers, or drop Artillery on them.

When his Hetzers appear, rush out your Cats with 'Hunt', and kill them.

[Redwolf]

The Hetzers actually have especially good going in mod and snow.

And Hellcats are very bad in months where 37mm Flak is available. They are more resistent against 20mm fire than one would think, though.

[JasonC]

Here is what you do -

Start with a US para battalion. Add 4 Churchill 8s, 4 Wasps, 2 5.5 inch artillery, and 1 MMG carrier.

The task them as follows. You have 4 company commanders. Give each 2 Para platoons, each with 3 squads, 4 3-man MMGs, 2 zooks, and 1 mortar. Assign 1 Churchill 8 and 1 Wasp to each of these companies. The last platoon, with only 3 3-man MMGs, gets the MMG carrier, battalion HQ, and all the FOs (US 81mm plus 2xUK 5.5 inch).

Retask the companies into 3 mini-platoons, 2 line and one led by the company HQ. The company HQ gets 2 squads and the 2 mortars, and takes the rear position in a "V". Put the tank with that platoon. The line platoons get 2 squads, 2 MMGs, and 2 zooks each, and go first. The wasp hangs back until a target appears.

The 9th platoon is the overall reserve. It protects the FOs and calls for fire. Alternately, you can keep some with the battalion HQ (e.g. Battalion, 1 sqd, 1 60mm, 1-3 MMGs, 0-2 zooks) and use the rest split up as scouts ahead of the whole formation (plt HQ, 4x1/2 sqd, 0-2 MMG, 0-2 zook). The MMG carrier just uses up leftover points; you can scout ahead with it if you like. The US 81mm with lightening fast response time is used for smoke missions, which can cover wasp rushes e.g. The UK 5.5 inch are used to blast infantry positions.

Push the numerous zooks (18 of them) forward to flank his AFVs. The Church 8s can engage frontally. The 60mms do gun suppression; don't waste their limited ammo on lesser things. All the MMGs and squads (split if you like) will dissipate scads of his infantry firepower and soak up his ammo. The para squads also come with lots of infantry AT, rifle grenades and gammon bombs. So you can swarm vehicles easily enough.

I'd recommend a 2 by 2 deployment of the main body. Meaning, attack on a frontage of just 2 of the above "Vs" (thus 4 platoons across the immediate front), with another equal size force trailing each as a second wave.

Obviously the nationality mix, 8s, wasps, cheap heavy arty - are all totally gamey. But that is the idea of the exercise, isn't it?

[ June 12, 2002, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The Hetzers actually have especially good going in mod and snow.

Hey redwolf, i don't know if you take requests or not, but...

Maybe on this forum or for your next TH article you could delve into what units perform well in what landscape/conditions and which ones don't, and strategies around that.

For example I had NO idea about mud and hetzers. I guess I could do lots of tests, but I trust you more

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by tecumseh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

The Hetzers actually have especially good going in mod and snow.

Hey redwolf, i don't know if you take requests or not, but...

Maybe on this forum or for your next TH article you could delve into what units perform well in what landscape/conditions and which ones don't, and strategies around that.

For example I had NO idea about mud and hetzers. I guess I could do lots of tests, but I trust you more </font>

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

Allow me

Thanks Silvio. I would still like a redwolf tactics article on this sort of thing...what he picks in rain and fog, tactics for advancing at night in mud. Basically, things that work when its not clear and dry. I like redwolf's advice because its not abstract ("infantry rule the battlefield" "Soviet doctrine is best"), but practical. And its advanced...someone like me who has been playing CM for years still learns things

i am a tactics slut.

[ June 12, 2002, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: tecumseh ]

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by tecumseh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

Allow me

Thanks Silvio. I would still like a redwolf tactics article on this sort of thing...what to pick in rain and fog, tactics for advancing at night in mud. Basically, things that work when its not clear and dry. I like redwolf's advice because its not abstract ("infantry rule the battlefield" "Soviet doctrine is best"), but practical.

i am a tactics slut. </font>

[tecumseh]

Originally posted by Silvio Manuel:

I just know all these damned numbers b/c my memory is too good

Did that 11.3 psi for the hetzer come from memory? That would be impressive. Me, I can remember all the faces of minor actors and what movies they were in, but i have been known to forget my own age...

[Redwolf]

Thanks for the trust guys. Of course I could now try to fool you into buying crap

Seriously, I found that the ground pressure as displayed is in fact what CMBO uses to compute the chance for bogging down. I didn't observe anything that makes me think there is something else.

However, the bogging down is not the most decisive disadvantage about the groundhogs. In my opinion, these high-ground-pressure vehicles, especially the StuG III and the Panzer IV/70 always suffer badly from their bad going. When they stand on open ground or worse their aiming is so slow that they tend to lose duels or at least lose targets by giving up tracking them. That's especially bad when you face the M8 HMC horde which in my opinion is the better gamey force on med/med or better covered maps. Non-tank vehicles have no ground pressure listed, but from gut feeling I noticed the M3/M5 halftracks are very bad, along the line of StuGs, and the German halftracks are quite good, like the Pz IV.

Obviously, all turretless vehicles are extra-problemetic in bog-prone conditions. When they are immobile, they are good for nothing. The turret tank may bog at the right spot or you can push it there. I didn't find a way to hull-turn an immobilized vehicle by pushing, maybe I should try some Hummel shots beside it.

Anyway, I am not sure I am happy with that model, BTW. It emphazises on the game engine limitation that everyone can rotate in place. The real StuG III could rotate the hull, the real Sherman not. Now (in CMBO) the Sherman is the faster turner. I am not at all that sure the StuG III was a bad mud-bogger in real life. Besides not reading anywhere that the StuG IV was better in that respect (which I think people would have noticed), CMBO doesn't take the suspension into account. The torsion bar suspension should be a very substancial advantage in uneven ground, because it doesn't get softer when the springs are charged. That means the vehicle doesn't fall extra-hard into the next hole like simple spring suspensions cause it to do.

I really like the HVSS Shermans, BTW. They are too expensive to buy and too vulnarable for that in ladder play, but I drool when I get them in a scenario These tanks have enough HE and MG power to really mess up infantry, they have the fast turret which is one of the most important tank combat factors in CMBO, and they are fast enough to rush from cover to cover, no matter what ground. They are not front-vulnerable to the 50mm, the sides are comparably Flak-save and the front is partly angled enough to withstand shots that clearly penetrate other parts. Unless you assume you always have bad luck, this is a substancial statistical advantage.

25 turns and damp ground. If the attacker comes with Churchills, he is betting his chances that there are usable non-mined roads and/or that all targets are visible from near the attacker's start line. I like Jumbos better anyway.

[ June 12, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]