Medieval Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 Just My Opinion- Don't need em'. Part of the intrique for me is to "recreate" the battles and actions of WWII.... God knows, there were thousands and thousands.... I'd rather not waste my time on anything that is fiction no matter how fun the game is... its bogus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted November 1, 2000 Share Posted November 1, 2000 Each to their own of course. Personally I have had some real fights with the fictional battles so I will not complain. MikeT ------------------ "Quando omni flunkus moritati" - Motto of Possum Lodge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medieval: Just My Opinion- Don't need em'. Part of the intrique for me is to "recreate" the battles and actions of WWII.... God knows, there were thousands and thousands.... I'd rather not waste my time on anything that is fiction no matter how fun the game is... its bogus. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ah, so when you recreate the battles you'll make exactly the same moves as the historical commanders, right? Heh just funning with you. ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackson44dday Posted November 2, 2000 Share Posted November 2, 2000 In CM, there is no difference in a fictional scenario and a historical scenario. So, Medieval, your saying you wont play any of the fictional games that CM comes with. There all the same to me. Scenarios that is. ------------------ He who conquers the past, cammands the future, he who cammands the future, conquers the past. - Kane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medieval Posted November 2, 2000 Author Share Posted November 2, 2000 There is, INDEED, a huge difference between fiction and non-fiction. Can't beleive you said that.... I play ASL. Each scenario and Campaign is based in history. The battle is modified to make it as balanced as possible. I.E. both sides have a chance to secure the vicorty conditions. But, I love the game and play it partly b/c it is historical. ------------------ "And if Never Have You Should, These Things are Fun And Fun is Good." -Dr. Suess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundpounder Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medieval: There is, INDEED, a huge difference between fiction and non-fiction. Can't beleive you said that.... I play ASL. Each scenario and Campaign is based in history. The battle is modified to make it as balanced as possible. I.E. both sides have a chance to secure the vicorty conditions. But, I love the game and play it partly b/c it is historical. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you tweak it to make it balanced, it is only semi-historical. To me it does not matter if a scenario is historical . I just love the pucker factor of a good scenario! We all enjoy CM for different reasons, just enjoy! GP "After you have secured an area, don't forget to tell the enemy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 Just to add, historical reenactors don't refight a battle, say Gettysburg, to see if they could win. They just like the joy of being there in the same situation (and dying like rats like Pickett's brigade). Well, IMHO, a simulation is different. CM is a game. There are rules, someone sets up a field, and you do the best you can. The 'what if' factors also interest a lot of people as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoAttacker Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 No Be or Not to be? Fiction or non-fiction. Remeber even historical recreations are never perfect, You even stated that ASL balances play for victory conditions. What are victory conditions, are they not fictional? I believe that as any long time war game player will admit, CM is the best thing that has happened! I believe you as anyone else can make decisions on how to play this game. If you chose to only play historical scenarios, then play them. Remember history provides for the "what ifs" and CM gives COs a chance to not stop for tea and fight through the night to save Frost and his troops at Arnhem. This is a game and I must say as an ASL vet, yes you are provided with historical components of a battle, but it stops being historical once you are on the map playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellonmyhead Posted November 3, 2000 Share Posted November 3, 2000 I think the key points here are the words "recreate" and "modified". I don't think Medieval has once said his battles have to be one hundred per-cent historically accurate; his aim is just to recreate as close as possible in a game of this nature the 'real' situation. It is obvious to anyone this is not possible; all games and simulations alike are not capable of catering for every real life situation, however much the developers endeavour. What must be sought for the desired effect is a point of balance where a rules system, or an algorithm (as a programmed 'rules system' would employ) best meets the trade-off between game and reality. Having said that, I am not against fictional scenarios; but it does make things more interesting if they are at least 'based on' historical incidents. And further to that, I can see the difficulty most of us have in gleaning information on actual historical battles. In conclusion therefore, while I would prefer historically 'accurate' scenarios, I can live with (and certainly enjoy the gaming aspects of) fictional skirmishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medieval: Just My Opinion- Don't need em'. Part of the intrique for me is to "recreate" the battles and actions of WWII.... God knows, there were thousands and thousands.... I'd rather not waste my time on anything that is fiction no matter how fun the game is... its bogus. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Shameless plug to follow... I have designed a few scenarios I would call semi-historical. They are based on general campaigns, keeping close to TO&Es, and are, I hope, probables. They aim to simulate a specific aspect of combat, with historically reasonably accurate forces. They are balanced, and I have been assured they are fun by the testers. I have no interest whatsoever in faithfully recreating a historical scenario, spending money on maps, only to then a) have to change the forces to make it playable and enjoyable for both sides and then be attacked by some grog because the 2nd HMG team on the rear was not actually there in reality. CM is a simulation, and as such there is a place for scenarios simulating probable occurences. If you want to label them bogus, fine. Each to their own, but I think you are foregoing a lot of enjoyment. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-03-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackson44dday Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 All i'm saying is that a scenario is a scenario. A map that units are set on thats all. ------------------ He who conquers the past, cammands the future, he who cammands the future, conquers the past. - Kane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fellonmyhead Posted November 4, 2000 Share Posted November 4, 2000 I'm sorry jackson, but if the map includes areas marked as 'pizzeria' or 'Chinese restaurant' then I feel it detracts from the game atmosphere (the map I refer to here is a good map if you ignore the author's allusions to his own neighbourhood). A scenario is, therefore, not just a map on which the units are placed if the map is deliberately depicted as something that doesn't fit in with the game's period. One would not set up a Roman legion against a Soviet tank column, for example; or put either in the battle for France in 1944. Point taken otherwise; as long as no blatant violations are made, the scenario can credibly exist as a fictional one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 For Disaster@Work: FYI, historical reenactors do indeed attempt to "change" the course of history. Civil War reenacting is just as you say, i.e. the battles always have a predetermined outcome. WW2 reenacting is very different, however. We occasionally have what are called "canned" events, but most of them are "whovever gets the upper hand wins" scenarios. For example, I am a member of a German infantry regiment, and we participated in a reenactment of the battle of Bastogne a couple of years ago. And in this one, the outcome was a German victory. Similarly, the Battle of the Bulge is reenacted every year, and the Allies do not always win. For me, reenacting EXACTLY what happened is boring (ala Civil War). Not knowing what the outcome will be (just like the real WW2 soldiers) is a lot more interesting. That is one of the reasons I like CM; you never know what's going to happen next. Unteroffizier "Josef Mohr" 44.Infanteriedivision 134.Infanterieregiment 2.Kompanie ------------------ "Natural body oils, combined with dirt, can keep you waterproof" -Krüger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 ah, thanks. I wasn't aware that it was different for WWII reenactors. By the way, how do you determine when someone is killed / unit is hit? Paintball? Referees? ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 We determine "hits" by several methods. We use blanks instead of paintballs, so casualties are a little harder to determine. Our reenacting organization (the NMHA - National Military Historical Association), primarily uses the honor system. For example, if you are advancing through the woods, and suddenly hear a shot (or see a muzzle flash), and an enemy soldier can be seen aiming at you, then you take the "hit". The "dead" soldier then takes off his helmet (to signify being hit), and then goes back to a rear area. After waiting a specified amount of time (usually 10-15 minutes), the "dead" are allowed to return as reinforcements. This ensures everyone gets plenty of trigger time - if you only had one "life" and were killed in the first 5 minutes, then that 8 hour drive to the reenactment wouldn't be much fun. This method isn't always reliable though; sometimes you get the "got you! Did not!" from sore losers. So increasingly, umpires are being used. With them, there is no argument (just like in baseball). When they say you're dead, then that's it. Even so, it's a lot of fun. We use exactly the same uniforms and equipment. Only difference being our MP-40's, BAR's, grenades, etc aren't lethal. We also use the real vehicles. At one event I got to ride in a SDKFZ 251 halftrack all day, and that was more fun "than a body ought to be allowed to have"! One of the reenactment units even has a real StuG III, and a towed 88. Hope that answered some of your questions.. ------------------ "Natural body oils, combined with dirt, can keep you waterproof" -Krüger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 I seem to recall seeing an Airsoft (shoots small pink plastic BBs) version of the MP40. That would be a good compromise. I did a little searching and found this catalog page that has Lugers: http://airsoftguns.com/catalogs/tm99lnup/page03.htm ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disaster@work Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Oh cool. Thompson tommy gun airsoft http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/tm-m1a1.htm Slide action colt http://home.netvigator.com/~dtrinity/2nd.htm Walther PPK http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/ppk.htm ------------------ ---- To download my scenarios: go to http://www3.telus.net/pop_n_fresh/combatmiss/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 7, 2000 Share Posted November 7, 2000 Those are interesting, but the ones we use are the real McCoy, only with blank adapters installed. ------------------ "Natural body oils, combined with dirt, can keep you waterproof" -Krüger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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