Prinz Eugen Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 Originally posted by Denizen: lets not ignore the the fact that the T34 had better side turret, rear turret, hull side and hull rear armor than the panther ever did... :cool: The rear and side armour aren't that important. I should think that any tank that is shot at from the flank or rear is in big trouble, and really cannot rely on its armour to live through another day. About the T-34 vs Panther issue, well, in the demo I had my dreams shattered. I had an idea of the T-34 as an übertank, but it seems this is not the case. A lowly PaK 36 can defeat the T-34 M40 frontally ! :eek: I think the best quality in the T-34/85 is that they were numerous, and therefore come cheap - using the rarity option. I don't know whether the quality of the tank in itself affects the "price" in QBs, or whether it all boils down to the number actually present in the theater at a current date. It remains to be seen what is the difference in points between a Panther and a T-34/85 platoon. But I do hope them Soviets come cheap, as IMO the best tactic for a T-34 commander against Panthers would be to get in close, fast, or leave them to SU-100's, ISU's or the IS-breed... [ September 15, 2002, 04:27 AM: Message edited by: Prinz Eugen ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Panzer Boxb Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 Originally posted by Prinz Eugen: I don't think that the demo is any indication of the general worthiness of Soviet armour. The T-34 M40 was the very first model and lacked many of the improvements of later models. From what I've found only 1,000 were made. In the Kursk battle there are the KV-1S which had reduced armor to make it a faster vehicle. If you want to see a monster for early war then wait to see the KV-1C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 Nippy, Bet on the IS-2. It is the superior tank if properly handled. The KT is a bit more forgiving but will "gain" less in the hands of a good commander. The IS-2 will "gain" you more if you're good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 According to Valera's site, the IS-2 is actually about the same weight class of the Panther and not the KT or Tiger. It would probably be better to compare the IS-2 with the Panther rather than the heavies like the Tiger or KT at least in terms of weight class. Apparently, the Germans and the Russians had different ideas on what constituted a medium and heavy tank. For the Russians, the Panther would be a heavy tank and the Tiger/KT would be a super heavy tank while the Germans considered the Panther only a medium and the Tiger/KT was a heavy. I'm not so sure if comparing the IS-2 with a "super heavy" tank is necessarily a fair comparison, but it also seems clear the IS-2 could take on the German heavies and survive and win (but I think the Soviets preferred to keep the IS-2 away from such tank-to-tank duels and keep it focused on its main job). German training and optics would still give the Germans the advantage though at long distances. The Soviets reported that even at the War's end, the quality of German tank and mortar crews remained high. Actually what would be the effect of a 122 or 152mm HE round hitting a Tiger? From what a understand, these rounds had a lot better effect than the HE capability of the old German 88 and I had heard that even an HE 122/152 round could still do some appreciable damage to enemy armor even if the tank wasn't knocked out. Anyone know for sure? I remember Loza talking about how in one urban battle, there was a dug in Panther holding up the Soviet advance. They brought in an ISU-152. It fired and it pretty much ripped the turret off the Panther and knocked it back a ways from the main body of the tank. Needless to say, the Panther was no longer a threat. I believe Loza also mentions how force from the ISU-152 was so powerful that many of the windows in the immediate area became broken and shattered when it fired off its round. [ September 15, 2002, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Commissar ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 I dont know about that match up. I think my money would be on the Panther, if it was one on one (which it never was in reality!). Another matchup that I greatly look forward to is either the IS-2/ISU-122s vs the king tigers. Lets the big boys play Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 "Actually what would be the effect of a 122 or 152mm HE round hitting a Tiger?" I imagine the concussion effects would be horrific to say the least. If not out right killed the crew would be shocked, deaf, and disorented for a good while. "Enemy tank! 500 meters!" "What!?" "I said, Enemy Tank 500 meters!" "What!?" "I SAID ENEMY TANK 500 METERS!!!" "Huh? I can't hear you! But I just wanted you to know that I spotted an enemy tank at 500 meters!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl_Smasher Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 In lorrins book the soviet 122mm and 152mm HE shells would penetrate 25-40mm of armor max. There's pictures of pz iv's and Panthers with direct 152 HE impacts and the armor looks slightly bulged inwards. Tiger I Late model top armor was changed to 40mm to be proof against 152mm artillery top hits. You need the AP shells for the big cats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal Barca Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 Originally posted by Nippy: "Actually what would be the effect of a 122 or 152mm HE round hitting a Tiger?"I read soviet and german reports saying that a hit from SU-152 HE on the turret (of any german in '43) was in most case breaking the rotating system. A flank hit or near miss was breaking the track or some wheels. And I don't take in account the effect on the crew... [ September 15, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Hannibal Barca ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal Barca Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 Originally posted by tools4fools: Originally posted by Hannibal Barca: Indeed. At 1.5 shots per minute. Expect 4-5 coming back your way if you didn't hit with the first shot. *goes to practice the "Shoot and scoot" command*Yes, it was not easy for the soviet crews, but I read a german report stating that an elite SU-152 crew could fire up to 3 rounds per minute (the 40s./shot should be taken as a rough average: it was very hard to reload when the tank was moving on rough ground). The average rate was more about 30 s. per shot when the tank was still. And the SU-152 was heavily armored. Against the Panther the loss rate was about 5:4 in favor of the SU-152 (rough estimate, can't bring real stats here). But against KW IV, it was a massacre... [ September 15, 2002, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Hannibal Barca ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 The matchup I want to see is the SU-100 vs any cat. Should be most interesting. I'm also looking forward to handling the 57mm AT gun and the 76mm used as a AT gun. Finally, I want to see what can be done with proper handling of the Soviet lights like the T-60 and T-70. Yep, lots of hours of gaming ahead! In fact, there may be a national economic productivity impact from the arrival of CMBB! Can you imagine the puzzled economists going over their GNP figures and asking "what in the heck happened after 9/20?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 i read somewhere that a hit from a isu122/is-2 would usually kill or incapacitate the crew even if it didn't penetrate the tank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leakyD Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 i read somewhere that a hit from a isu122/is-2 would usually kill or incapacitate the crew even if it didn't penetrate the tank... this makes a lot of sense. was it common practice for tankers to wear earplugs? um, me thinks not. between the noise and concusion of a 6" round hitting a few feet away, i can't imagine anyone having the wherewithal to keep fighting (at least for a good length of time) Perhaps we'll get a treat, and everytime a heavy tank is hit by a large HE round, the crew will be SHOCKED, regardless of whether there were casualties or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 15, 2002 Share Posted September 15, 2002 I just played a few QBs, because the question interested me. Conclusion - if I get to choose between Soviet tanks (up to and including captured Panthers) and an equivalent value of AT guns and ATRs, I'd go with the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--am-- Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 1. 45mm 2. 76 mm all 45mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 Originally posted by Prinz Eugen: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Denizen: lets not ignore the the fact that the T34 had better side turret, rear turret, hull side and hull rear armor than the panther ever did... :cool: The rear and side armour aren't that important. I should think that any tank that is shot at from the flank or rear is in big trouble, and really cannot rely on its armour to live through another day.</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: Well, I'd rather be on leave actually, but second-best would be the Tiger. If still stuck on the front, then per the advocation of Bill Mauldin in one of his "Willy & Joe" cartoons, "I'd ruther dig. A moving foxhole attracts the eye." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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