Arty accuracy

[michael]

Does anyone know the factors involved in determining the accuracy of indirect (FOO spotted) arty fire?

Eg

a) experience level of FOO?

type of artillery (including mortars)?

c) caliber of arty?

d) nationality?

e) weather?

f) duration of bombardment (adjustment?)

g) how "blue" the LOS line is?

h) the AI rolling dice

i) all of the above

j) none of the above

I'm asking, 'cause experience isn't giving me any solid data. I''ve had reg and vet FOOS, 150s and 81s, winter and summer, etc, etc. sometimes being bang on (pun intended) and sometimes being all over the map (pun intended). Now, I know one doesn't want the shells all landing in the same holes (how dead is dead), but puhlease, how about in the neighbourhood?

[Specterx]

a) Not sure - definately an effect on ToT

Depends. Rockets are far, far less accurate than tube artillery. Really big guns also seem to be slightly less accurate than smaller calibers, but they also fire far fewer rounds, so it could just be an illusion.

c) See .

d) Don't think so

e) Depends - if the weather affects the FOO's visibility, then it would.

f) Don't think so

g) This easily has the greatest effect out of all the factors you listed. If the LOS line is blue, it means the FOO has a direct LOS to the target and thus is assumed to be able to direct the fire more accurately.

h) This has the second greatest effect

It's really a matter of luck in most cases. You can usually have the same effect as increased accuracy by choosing artillery nationalities and calibers that come with lots of rounds (e.g. US artillery, mortars).

[Mud]

Hm. I believe that somebody did some tests regarding experience level of FO, and also the bonuses of an HQ if the FO's in command.

Some that are definitely relevant:

- Type of artillery. In particular, rockets versus standard tube artillery. Lighter arty tends to result in tighter groups, as well.

- Whether or not a Target Reference Point is involved.

- Having direct LOS or not -- firing blind, away from any TRPs, is not going to result in a tight group very often...

It wouldn't surprise me if it's non-binary, namely that quality of LOS matters, since seeing where the shells land should help the FO adjust fire.

Battlefront has indicated that there aren't national bonuses. However, they aren't mirror images of each other, e.g. the German arty isn't exactly the same as the British arty, and so forth, because they weren't in reality, either. So be careful trying to compare two types, even if they're nominally of similar / identical caliber, since the launchers may have different characteristics.

[michael]

Thanks for those!

Using an earlier post in another room and your comments, I think I've gleaned two things here. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. The quality of the LOS counts. IE a bright blue line will get a better spread than a dark blue line.

2. The accuracy of the weapon is based on actual specs of the weapon. IE the designers have crunched the specs on each weapon ("official" or "real world"?) regarding accuracy and that's reflected here.

Another question: If a FOO is in C&C of a leader with an attack modifier, does the accuracy increase?

[JonS]

Just checking something: you do know that artillery is supposed to fall in a large, spread-out pattern, yeah?

I'm not going to go into the stats of the thing (if you want a course on stats, just check any of JasonCs' posts ), but artillery is an area weapon, and the spread of rounds around the aim point is actually a desirable characteristic, not an unpleasant side effect.

Of course, the degree of spread may be more than you were wanting or expecting.

There was a thread recently about accuracy and dispersion of artillery, both in real life and in relation to CM.

For gunnery stuff, search for the following users:

Tero, JasonC, and in particular Bullethead.

Regards

JonS

[Moon]

Michael:

1. not sure about this. I don't think the "quality" of the LOS counts, though. As long as you're able to see where the first spotting round falls, you can call in arty fairly accurately I'd say.

2. Definitely.

And yes, an FO under C&C from a HQ unit gets all the bonuses associated with the HQ. This can lead to higher ROF, quicker TOT and better accuracy.

[Redwolf]

Here is some info from thread 022413 from the main CM forum.

The quality of the FO or of vision does not inflcuence the pattern. However, bad LOS (as opposed to good LOS or no LOS) will frequently delay the fall of the shells bejond what the unit display reports.

It is my impression that big guns are less accurate, however that might be a psychological misimpression. Big arty has fewer shells, so the less precise spotting shells count more. And the fewer shells make for an impression that the pattern is less dense, without that actually being so. If you test with equal ammo, the problem doesn't go away since the larger shell holes will again make it hard to come up with a fair estimation what to consider the main area.

If soeone wants to solve this, you have to test with equal ammo, then name the area where the 80% and 95% fall, but not counting the spotting rounds. No optical impression whatsoever, you have to count each shell. This is tedious to do as you cannot count the shell holes afterwards, because more than on shell may fall on the same spot, which would again lead to an undereastimation of the big guns.

Guns with TRP

LOS: 120m E-W x 50m N-S

No LOS: same (but the 5% beyond this is further out than with an LOS)

Guns without TRP

LOS: 120m E-W x 50m N-S

No LOS: 220m E-W x 120m N-S

Mortars with TRP

LOS: 140m E-W x 80m N-S

No LOS: same (but the 5% is further out)

Mortars without TRP

LOS: 140m E-W x 80m N-S

No LOS: 250m E-W x 120m N-S

Rockets

Always have about 80% in 200m x 200m circle and about 95% within 300m

x 300m, regardless of LOS or TRP.

[offtaskagain]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JonS:

There was a thread recently about accuracy and dispersion of artillery, both in real life and in relation to CM.

For gunnery stuff, search for the following users:

Tero, JasonC, and in particular Bullethead.

Regards

JonS<hr></blockquote>

There was also this thread yesterday that was pretty interesting. Bullethead sure has some interesting stories.

Why you don't go into an artillery impact area.

Bullethead's webpage in his profile is also interesting. It has pictures from his time in the Gulf War when he was in a counterbattery radar unit.

[Moon]

Redwolf, are you sure about the quality of the FO? The post you copied over from Bullethead does not seem to have been tested with regard to FO's. From what I recall, the presence of an FO has impact at least on artillery fired without a TRP.

Martin

[michael]

Thanks for that info redwolf.

Am I getting this straight? If one has LOS to target, a TRP has no effect on "fire density" (or whatever the term is)?

>Guns with TRP

>LOS: 120m E-W x 50m N-S

>Guns without TRP

>LOS: 120m E-W x 50m N-S

>Mortars with TRP

>LOS: 140m E-W x 80m N-S

>Mortars without TRP

>LOS: 140m E-W x 80m N-S

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Moon:

Redwolf, are you sure about the quality of the FO? The post you copied over from Bullethead does not seem to have been tested with regard to FO's. From what I recall, the presence of an FO has impact at least on artillery fired without a TRP.

<hr></blockquote>

I tested that myself (without taking exact numbers).

[Redwolf]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by michael:

Thanks for that info redwolf.

Am I getting this straight? If one has LOS to target, a TRP has no effect on "fire density" (or whatever the term is)?

<hr></blockquote>

It seems that those rounds that are "off" are more off when firing on a TRP without LOS. But the number of round off seems to be the same.

I didn''t observe that myself, but it is what I figure from the numbers.

[Olle Petersson]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by michael:

Does anyone know the factors involved in determining the accuracy of indirect ... arty fire?

j) none of the above<hr></blockquote>Definately j!

Accuracy is always spot on (with exception for the first two spotting rounds).

But I think you're actually asking about precision...

Some terms:

Sheaf = The area covered by most of the shells in an arty mission.

Target point = the point aimed at by the FO.

Accuracy ~ distance between sheaf centre and target point.

Precision ~ size of the sheaf.

In CM all sheafs are centred on the target point, no matter how crappy the FO is. (This is fairly realistic, except for rocket artillery.)

The precision (size of sheaf) is pretty much determined by most of the factors you mentioned. Again with the exception for rocket artillery.

To maximise precision you should have an Elite FO with the target point within LOS.

All other factors are weapons specific (and I can't say which tube artillery has best/worse precision in CM).

Cheers

Olle

[michael]

Ahhh. The plot(ting) thickens! Thanks, Olle