MG firepower rating and suppressive effect

[Sigurd]

My question goes on the firepower value (as shown in the "unit info" window) given to any MG unit (HMG, LMG)

We all agree that the MG effect on infantry was raised quite a bit in CMBB (I don't discuss wheter it was a good idea or not), so my question is : how is it reflected in the info window ? That is, does a rifle squad and a MG team with the same firepower number (say 100 at a given distance) have the same suppressive effect ?

or have I to add x % to a MG firepower value to be at the same suppressive level as for a squad ?

Said in another way :

in CMBB, is the MG suppresive "bonus" effect (due to its MG, not squad, nature) (in comparaison with CMBO) reflected in the displayed firepower rating or not ?

I don't want to argue about the old "infantery broken" subject, I'm just talking about feedback given by the game for particular kind of unit (MG), in a particular domain (suppresive effect)

[ December 11, 2002, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Sigurd ]

[Silvio Manuel]

The numbers stayed the same (see MG42 HMG in both games for example) but the fired-upon unit's response has changed. I believe that a squad and an MG w/ putting out the same FP should produce the same effect- I *do not* think it's different if you have a 10xrifle, 1xSmg squad firing at a range of 100m vs. a MG42 @ 700m (i.e. same FP for both let's say) where the MG suppresses more just b/c it's an MG.

[ December 03, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Silvio Manuel ]

[Sigurd]

Seems reasonnable to me

Everybody agrees with Silvio ?

[walpurgis nacht]

Including a suppression rate with units seems a little overkill. With small arms fire, there is MG suppression and non-MG suppression. This is not a lot to intuitively learn.

Suppression ratings for armor and HE-chuckers is more or less covered vicariously in the blast value, so I don't think it would be overall very usefull there either.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Night:

Including a suppression rate with units seems a little overkill. With small arms fire, there is MG suppression and non-MG suppression. This is not a lot to intuitively learn.

Suppression ratings for armor and HE-chuckers is more or less covered vicariously in the blast value, so I don't think it would be overall very usefull there either.

I see your point, but on 2nd thought maybe MGs do intrinsically suppress more than other units at a given level of firepower? After all, the MG teams should put out more MG firepower than the LMG in a squad, due to the full support of a 5 or 6 man team...???

[Tarquelne]

I see your point, but on 2nd thought maybe MGs do intrinsically suppress more than other units at a given level of firepower?

I have recieved the impression that for suppression effects ROF is more important than the actual accuracy in "real life". It's easy for soldiers to to tell if they're recieving a lot of fire, and that makes 'em want to keep thier heads down. But to cause casualties the fire must be accurate. 1000 bullets 2 feet away from the enemy doesn't make him a causalty.

I understand Firepower in CM to measure "ability to cause causalties." So given equal Firepower ratings I would expect the weapon with the higher ROF to cause more suppression.

The Firepower ratings of the MGs have stayed the same, but something about them seems to Suppress infantry more readily. That factor seems independant from Firepower - we've got the same FP, but more suppression. I don't know of any other significant factors, therefore I think that "something" must the the MGs ROF.

So: I believe that the same Firepower rating from rifles and MGs won't cause the same suppression, and the difference is due to ROF. And, finally, that this increased ability to supress isn't expressed in the weapon's FP rating.

This could be tested... but for the moment, at least, I'm prepared to simply have faith in my reasoning.

[ December 11, 2002, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[Redwolf]

If you observe carefully you will find that CMBB MGs do not kill enemy soldiers more often (unless they turn away and run due to the changed morale effects).

BFC did made the MGs more powerful (at least not much), they changed a whole crowd of mechanisms of secondary effects (too much for my taste, BTW).

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by redwolf:

[QB]If you observe carefully you will find that CMBB MGs do not kill enemy soldiers more often (unless they turn away and run due to the changed morale effects).

That fits with what I remember seeing... but it's also what I expected to see. It'd be interesting (and usefull) to find out just how much rifle and/or LMG firepower it does take to match the supressive effects of an equal-firepower HMG.

[Terrapin]

Originally posted by Tarqulene:

It'd be interesting (and usefull) to find out just how much rifle and/or LMG firepower it does take to match the supressive effects of an equal-firepower HMG.

I think it's entirely a range issue, the HMGs just don't drop off their firepower as much with range. I don't see too much difference in suppression between a full rifle squad at 50 meters, and an HMG at 250 meters.

[Sigurd]

From silvio :

maybe MGs do intrinsically suppress more than other units at a given level of firepower?

Yes, that was the point of my question :

Are MG more suppresive than the squad with the same FP ?

Said in another way :Is the more effective suppressive effect of MG due to its internal higher-suppresive ability ? Or do we see it just because of the tweakings to the infantry moral system ?

the ROF issue is interesting : the subjective impression of the chance of being killed could be higher with a MG (you hear all these bullets flying around your head, hence the morale bad effect), but in fact it could the same objective chance to die (read : same FP) as with a rifle squad (but you hear only sporadic shots, and you think wrongly you're safier, so the morale level is not so bad as with HMG)

such explanation would go in the "intrinsically higher suppresive effect of the HMG" direction