HarryZ Posted March 15, 2002 Share Posted March 15, 2002 In the Jentz book TigerI from Osprey´s new vanguard series, I read in German penetration tables that the TigerI can not penetrate the Sherman driver´s front plate, but can penetrate Churchill´s front plate at ranges over 1500m, though sherman´s front plate is much thinner. Can this be true, no penetration in sherman´s front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted March 15, 2002 Share Posted March 15, 2002 Does it say which Sherman and which Churchill? Not only that, but the front hull armour of the Sherman has a steep slope which will bounce shots off, and the Churchill has vertical armour which won't. Maybe that's why - but one of the experts will be along to tell you why soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted March 15, 2002 Share Posted March 15, 2002 The question makes just as much sense as would the question: "Does a car drive faster than 120mph?". IOW, it is too unspecific ("Sherman"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryZ Posted March 15, 2002 Author Share Posted March 15, 2002 Don´t you know what a Sherman is? That can´t I believe. If you know what it is, than you know also that so many different driver front plates don´t exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted March 15, 2002 Share Posted March 15, 2002 Well, there are.. umm.. I'm not quite sure.. half a dozen?? different front hulls in Shermans. The best ones are really strong, quite probable they cant be penetrated by Tiger I's 88. Churchills on the other hand. The "light armour" versions are not that tough, easily killed by almost anything. The stronger Churchills, VII and VIII, cant be killed by Tiger I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claus B Posted March 16, 2002 Share Posted March 16, 2002 Originally posted by HarryZ: Don´t you know what a Sherman is? That can´t I believe. If you know what it is, than you know also that so many different driver front plates don´t exist.Well.... M4+M4A2+M4A3+M4A4 56 degree hull M4 Hybrid cast front M4A1 early cast front M4A1 late cast front M4, M4A2, M4A3 47 degree hull M4A3E2 Jumbo reinforced 47 degree hull Claus B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted March 16, 2002 Share Posted March 16, 2002 Originally posted by HarryZ: In the Jentz book TigerI from Osprey´s new vanguard series, I read in German penetration tables that the TigerI can not penetrate the Sherman driver´s front plate, but can penetrate Churchill´s front plate at ranges over 1500m, though sherman´s front plate is much thinner. Can this be true, no penetration in sherman´s front?Jentz uses german figures that refer to shells striking tanks at a 30 deg oblique angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted March 16, 2002 Share Posted March 16, 2002 Following looks at 88L56 and 75L48 performance against Sherman "driver plate" (glacis) using data in our booK: If Tiger I is firing on good quality Sherman front glacis hull plate at a 30 degrees side angle, which is what German tables generally look at, the plate is 63.5mm at 47 vertical degrees hit at 30 degrees side angle. So 63.5mm hit at 54 degrees combined angle. T/D ratio is 63.5/88, or 0.72, slope multiplier is 2.33. 63.5 x 2.33 equals 149mm vertical. Tiger 88mm penetrates at 570m. Against Sherman with 50.8mm at 56 degrees driver plate, T/D is 50.8/88 for 0.58 and combined angle on 30 degree side hit is 61 degrees, Slope multiplier is 2.9, so vertical resistance of good armor is 50.8 x 2.9 for 147, which Tiger 88 APCBC penetrates at 650m. If Sherman 56 degree glacis armor is flawed, which is likely, resistance drops by multiplying factor of 0.83 x 147mm for 122mm, which Tiger 88mm APCBC penetrates at 1700m. U.S. did not mandate improved quality control and armor quenching procedures until October 1943, so most 56 degree Shermans had good chance of flaws and 47 degree Shermans tended to be good quality armor. 56 degree glacis Shermans also used multi-piece glacis arrangements with lower resistance cast plates and weld lines. There is a German report which Miles Krogfus shared with us years ago where panzer crewmen indicated that 75L48 could not penetrate 47 degree glacis at 1000m. T/D ratio for 75mm hit on 47 degree glacis is 63.5/75 for 0.85, slope multiplier is 1.86 so 47 degree glacis resists like 118mm vertical, which 75L48 APCBC penetrates at 700m on half the hits. At 1000m, 75L48 penetration is 109mm and penetration probability against 47 degree glacis with no side angle to hit is about 2%. Lorrin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted March 16, 2002 Share Posted March 16, 2002 Originally posted by HarryZ: Don´t you know what a Sherman is? That can´t I believe. If you know what it is, than you know also that so many different driver front plates don´t exist.*cough* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryZ Posted March 16, 2002 Author Share Posted March 16, 2002 What an answer, from a socalled "EXPERT" Whowww, that´s overwhelming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted March 16, 2002 Share Posted March 16, 2002 Originally posted by M Hofbauer: Yeah, you are truly clueless, aren't you Markus? You've got mail too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lassner.1 Posted March 16, 2002 Share Posted March 16, 2002 Is Mr. Z taking on the role of troll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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