Sixty Years ago...

[RSColonel_131st]

Sometimes, christmas can be a trying time. I guess I'm not the only one who tends to get sick of all the commerce, the adverstisments and the capitalism that has made it's way into this biggest holiday of the western world. Truth to be told, in the last week's I'D rather have ignored Xmas and the business it brings.

However, the above image may serve to remind us all how well we are today, and to count our blessings. It was drawn 60 years ago, in the encirclement at Stalingrad. Compared to that, we really have much to be thankfull for.

I wish you all safe and happy holidays.

[ December 24, 2002, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: RSColonel_131st ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Hmm, who to feel sorrier for, Stalin's murdering hordes, or Hitler's....

Maybe Mom can tell us?

Far better to remember Christmas 1914...when British and German soldiers, in spontaneous displays of humanity in several different parts of the line, stopped hostilities on their own and celebrated this holiest of days on the Christian calendar by exchanging small gifts and even going so far as to schedule or participate in sporting matches.

Horror-stricken officers in the mold of Colonel Blimp saw to it that such an occurence didn't happen again.

Oh sure, edit your post. Okay, my edit will point out that I am not unsympathetic to the plight of any of the men at Stalingrad - be they 6th Army, 62nd Army, or whomever...none of whom probably wanted to be there in the first place. Kind of too bad any of it had to happen at all, really.

I feel sorrier for the families of my own countrymen - killed in the Moro campaign of 1943, who fought tooth and nail against crack German paratroopers at Ortona during Christmas 1943 - or those 1975 gallant men thrown into Hong Kong and left to surrender (or be buried) at Christmas 1941.

We are indeed lucky today.

[ December 24, 2002, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[RSColonel_131st]

I didn't edit my post after your reply...I edited it because I wanted to add what that picture tells ME. No human beeing should have to live trough a christmas like that. And we all should do our best to make sure it doesn't happen again.

PS: Sorry, but "Hitlers murdering hordes" included people like my grandpa. He didn't end up in the Kessel, but a few of his friends. These guys really have my symphaty, no matter why and for what they fought.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by RSColonel_131st:

However, the above image may serve to remind us all how well we are today, and to count our blessings. It was drawn 60 years ago, in the encirclement at Stalingrad. Compared to that, we really have much to be thankfull for.

And in no small part do we have what happened in Stalingrad to thank for what we have now. I pity those men for the way they suffered, the way they died and the callous way they were betrayed by the regime they served.. sent to their deaths merely to prove a point.

I propose a toast to those who fought and died in Stalingrad, may the dead rest in peace, the living grow old in comfort and their offspring prosper.

[PeterX]

I sense a long thread developing....

[Krazy Canuck]

PS: Sorry, but "Hitlers murdering hordes" included people like my grandpa. He didn't end up in the Kessel, but a few of his friends. These guys really have my symphaty, no matter why and for what they fought.[/QB]

I'm sure Mike was just kidding with the board...he does it a lot.

O'k, what are you guys doing posting on the board on Xmas eve/day anyway....at least I've got an excuse to be home and playing CMBB tonite.

Merry Xmas,

KC

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Krazy Canuck:

O'k, what are you guys doing posting on the board on Xmas eve/day anyway....

I'm a communist, we don't celebrate christmas.

Actually I had some late work and the g/f went to bed before I came back so I have some "quality time" all for myself. Ironicly I was actually through my Stalingrad miniatures boxset I have recently bought, but I couldn't resist nipping in here for a moment.

[laxx]

Lifted Verbatim from Patton Strikes Back Game :

"Thirty pairs of eyes peered out from the darkness of the copse towards the lonely farmhouse. Thirty shivering soldiers exchanged determined glances. They were tired of freezing in the open. The ground was frozen so hard, they couldn't dig a proper hole. On nights like this, they couldn't sleep, and shivered miserably all night long. They saw that farmhouse and imagined the warmth and coziness inside, the protection from the biting wind.

They were going to take that farmhouse.

Silently they slithered across the snow. Spreading out, they inched their way forward, slowly, patiently searching for the pickets. When all were in position they rose and threw themselves on the guards, bayonetting them before more than a grunt could escape their lips. Simultaneously, the others rushed the farmhouse, bursting in and slaying all inside with bayonet and pistol. Only a few stray shots, only a few screams broke the silence.

Now the prize was theirs. Even with no fire, the warmth of the tiny room was a thing of joy. But first there were spoils to distribute: the fabulous clothes that their dead American victims would no longer need. Boots made of real leather, not cardboard. Overcoats that didn't fall apart. Real wool blankets, and mittens, and scarves. Each man got his fair share. Then pickets were posted, and the victors lay down for a night of genuine sleep. Twenty men curled up in a tiny room, laying one on another like kittens in a litter. In three minutes all were fast asleep as their comrades stood guard outside.

Outside, all was peaceful and quiet on this Christmas night."

[ichadwick]

Why just Christmas? Why should anyone have to endure any day in hell? Should the Israelis have to endure battle during Yom Kippur? The Arabs during Ramadan? Hindus during Diwali? War does not respect faith.

In the Ostfront, both states were officially and agressively non-Christian. Hitler and Stalin had both gone to great lengths to separate state from church, to the point of great hostility, repression and purges against religion. The soldiers may have felt differently, and practiced in secret, but their governments were atheist.

Christmas in Stalingrad focused the German soldiers' sentiments on their situation because they were more accustomed to spending the day with family and friends than in the rubble. But for the Russians - those whose till secretly practiced or at least remembered the Orthodox faith and its calendar - Christmas didn't fall until January 7. I wonder if the Germans gave them a day of respite then.

Ian

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by ichadwick:

Why just Christmas? Why should anyone have to endure any day in hell? Should the Israelis have to endure battle during Yom Kippur? The Arabs during Ramadan? Hindus during Diwali? War does not respect faith.

It's not just Christmas of course, but Christmas is observed in the english-speaking world which is why it get's noticed and this is a ww2 board which makes Ramadan and Diwali rather off-topic holidays.

Having said that I guess that attacking Israel on Yom Kippur speaks of a rather misguided sense of irony, it's the kind of joke that get's you a bloody nose...

In the Ostfront, both states were officially and agressively non-Christian. Hitler and Stalin had both gone to great lengths to separate state from church, to the point of great hostility, repression and purges against religion. The soldiers may have felt differently, and practiced in secret, but their governments were atheist.

It wasn't the governements that suffered, it was the soldiers (it always is) so it's their religious beliefs that count. I don't think the Nazi's were particularly succesfull in secularising germany and I have seen some footage of the last President of the CCCP saying an orthodox prayer for gis grandmother, so I reckon the soldiers on both sides had feelings about christmas.

Christmas in Stalingrad focused the German soldiers' sentiments on their situation because they were more accustomed to spending the day with family and friends than in the rubble.

True enough, but that didn't make it any less painfull.

But for the Russians - those whose till secretly practiced or at least remembered the Orthodox faith and its calendar - Christmas didn't fall until January 7. I wonder if the Germans gave them a day of respite then.

The russians might actually have had the opportunity to observe christmas in a small way, the orthodox having been back in grace again. But it would have been a trying time for them for entirely different reasons.

Anyway, I guess that I just wanted to say that having to fight and die on your holy day of peace, joy and the reafferming of family and friendship bonds is particularly ****ty.. even if you already are in a world of ****.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by ichadwick:

In the Ostfront, both states were officially and agressively non-Christian. Hitler and Stalin had both gone to great lengths to separate state from church, to the point of great hostility, repression and purges against religion.

You have obviously never wondered why the Wehrmacht belt buckle said "Gott mit uns", and/or never seen the pictures of German Catholic and Lutheran priests blessing weapons, men, heard of German field chaplains, etc.pp. Purges against religion in Germany were only against those who dared speak out against the regime. Fortunately enough for Adolf both official churches in Germany preferred to busy themselves blessing his weapons.