Value of Crack and Elite forces

[Zitadelle]

To paraphrase King Henry V: "Do I not bleed if you prick me?"

Here is the situation. A few CMBOer and I are beginning discussions on a ruleset for PBEM quick battles (set-up, scoring, etc....). One of the latest threads between us has been regarding a player purchasing all crack/elite units and the impact that this could have on play balance.

Now, I know that making such a purchase is insanely expensive (German elite infantry battalion, about 2400 points) and extremely unrealistic.

However, what is the value in the terms of combat play for crack and elite units? Leaving out command response time, what is the difference between an elite unit and a regular, green, or veteran unit? Are they deadlier (not through firepower, but maybe something else)? Are they more immune to firepower (I would hope not, but maybe they can read terrain better)?

Any experiences would help- especially from the CMBO veterans and grogs.

Thanks.

[ July 03, 2002, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Zitadelle ]

[Redwolf]

They actually have more firepower.

You have to make a difference between infantry and vehicles.

vehicles:

- less command delay

- higher ROF including less time to first shot

- less prone to bog down

- better AI for attacking infantry with main guns and MGs

- better spotting of new units, better identification of spotted units

- backing out of trouble works better

infantry:

- less prone to keep head down and then to break

- keep following assigned path under more stress

- more firepower

- usually HQs with more bonusses

- know what to do with a tank

- AT teams have higher hit probablity

- MG teams have higher chance to unjam the weapon

In theory, the more numerous force will win, because -e.g.- the hit probablity f a 5-tank medium quality platoon is better than a similarily expensive 3-tank high-quality platoon. And more infantry has other advantages, more spotting, more guarding, lucky shots on vehicle etc.

In practice, there often is considerable difficulty to bring the higher number into combat at the same time. This especially apllies to vehicles where there is no sure way to bring them into LOS at the same point within one turn, plus risk of traffic jam, which is catastrophic in LOS of enemies.

The proper countermeasure against elite infantry is artillery, and against elite vehicles cover, ambush and attack from several sides simultaneously.

People often forget to "upgrade" regular units with high-bonus HQs and defensive guns and tanks with TRPs, or FlaK guns.

Personally, I find anything less than regular not fit for combat. I rarely buy high quality units, but I find it useful for sharpshooters, AT teams, reseve platoons, some kinds of tank destroyers (Hellcat, Jagdpanther, Hetzer, Marder II, Nashorn) and ocassionally for tanks with fast or medium turret and good going in difficult ground (especially Pz. IVH, HVSS Shermans, Cromwells).

[CMplayer]

Crack AT guns will tend to get first shot kills, which can mean killing a vehicle without being spotted in return.

Crack 50 cals are a menace to lightly armored vehicles such as HTs, Wespes etc out to at least 700 meters.

[Ron]

Originally posted by redwolf:

vehicles:

- less prone to bog down

- better AI for attacking infantry with main guns and MGs

- backing out of trouble works better

Interesting comments, I wonder what you are basing this on? If they are your impressions I think they are misplaced. The bogging is completely untrue from my play, experience levels having nothing to do with bogging/unbogging chances. As for backing out of trouble, again from my play, it is the Green vehicles who are more apt to bug out quicker, sometimes for no apparent reason. The "better AI for attacking infantry"(??) is something I have never seen either.

Regards the initial poster's questions on infantry, yes they have better response time, more fire and staying power, they are more immune to the effects of breaking/panic etc., but that is basically it, they take casualties like any other experience level. I don't think they would inherently unbalance a scenario because CM's point system takes their capabilities into account, by selecting them you will have to do more with less, eg Elite coys have about a 1.7x premium to Regular coys. In CM it is invariably better to have more of everything instead of trying to do more, unless you are a 'Super' player in which case wait until their ammo runs out! As others have said having a small *Shock* force of higher level troops, with the less trained acting as cannon-fodder, can pay dividends.

Infantry support weapons, AT guns, handheld AT weapons etc., seem to benefit most from higher experience without question.

With vehicles, the associated cost for purchasing Crack/Elite units, again the same ratio of about 1.7x compared to Regulars, rarely seems to be worth it. Yes they have quicker reactions and reloading, and a higher initial accuracy, but the results on the battlefield don't reflect or justify the higher costs involved for purchasing them, though there are exceptions where I imagine it would. In CM the randomness of armor engagements mean there are no sure things for hit probability, so your Elite Panther could just as easily miss at 200m and die as the Regular Panther. On an average basis I would always select more Regulars versus fewer Crack/Elites, so again I think there wouldn't be any inherent unbalancing. I would be more concerned with the unit's technical specs much more than its experience level.

Ron

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Zitadelle:

To paraphrase King Henry V: "Do I not bleed if you prick me?"

[snips]

Shylock, surely?

All the best,

John.

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Ron:

I would think that's b/c Greens are more apt to mis-ID a Panzer IV as a Tiger, for example, above and beyond those units just being more 'fraid of danger.

Two side notes about the TacAI: for the 1st time ever, I saw my enemy's Panzer IV mis-ID'd as a "light tank?" up until the final score/map was shown. Granted, it was snowing, and I never got closer than 100m or so, with Regular troops.

Also, it was great to see my Greyhound platoon (4 M8's) go scurrying away (on their own/TacAI) in 4 different directions while directly beneath a 150mm barrage...cool.

[Zitadelle]

First, thanks for everyone's replies on the subject. Second, a bump to the top to see if anyone else would like to add their input.

(Although, I know everyone is really more interested in the Rune Sneak Preview message. I couldn't attend, but thanks Rune for hosting the event; and, thanks to all programmers and beta testers. I'll be waiting....)

I have noted the difference in point scoring for regular vs. elite troops, and after a few QB set-ups realize that the HQ units tend to be given a few more bonuses.

However, excluding the combat bonuses, I still don't see the gain in firepower that Redwolf et al. have discussed. The unit information still shows the same firepower between a regular and elite unit. Is the firepower bonus solely based upon the link to the combat-bonus HQ unit?

Thanks.

[Ron]

Originally posted by Zitadelle:

However, excluding the combat bonuses, I still don't see the gain in firepower that Redwolf et al. have discussed. The unit information still shows the same firepower between a regular and elite unit. Is the firepower bonus solely based upon the link to the combat-bonus HQ unit?

Thanks.

No, the unit stats on the info display won't change but during a turn you will see the increase in firepower when you Target a unit. I forget the exact ratio now but it is significant. The HQs bonus is separate and in addition.

Ron