Soviet/Axis losses - some definite numbers here

[killmore]

These numbers come from "When Titans clashed" David M. Glanz & Jonathan House 1995

Axis had numeric advantage 1.4:1 in 22 June 1941 on eastern front

Axis continued to have numerical advantage until December 1941

By April 1945 Soviet+Allies had 3.5:1 advantage

Losses - means Dead/Missing/POW

Soviet losses: 11,285,057 (Note: Soviet allies losses not included but seems well under 500,000?)

German losses by April 1945: 5,100,000 (by April 1945 - all fronts over 80% in the east - (see Table E))

German losses east front : 10,758,000 east front war end (page 284)

Axis allies east front total: 1,725,800 (959,000 dead) (Table E)

Definitly seems less that 2:1 in losses to me.

[ July 25, 2002, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: killmore ]

[Michael Emrys]

I find these figure really confusing, Killmore. First it claims that total German losses on all fronts to April, 1945 amount to 5,100,000 with the added note that 80% (or 4,080,000) were on the Eastern Front. Then it claims that losses on the Eastern front by the end of the war amounted to 10,758,000. Are we expected to believe that Germany lost over six million men in the last month of the war on the Eastern Front alone? Were there actually that many men in uniform at that time? And weren't most of them either fighting to the death against the Soviets or trying to surrender to the Western Allies?

:confused:

Michael

[kipanderson]

Hi,

The most reliable and fullest figures I have are largely in agreement with those given above. The problem is always in the detail of the way people are counting the casualties.

If you count casualties suffered during the last six weeks of the war, then yes, the above figures are correct. The Red Army took 5,000,000 German POWs in the April and the first two weeks of May 45. However, I believe this will have included some that may be classified as civil defence personal, I do not know.

The most representative way to count German and Soviet casualties, in my view, others will differ, is to count to the end of March 45. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly, the Germans still had their C&C infrastructure functioning up to the end of March, there was still an Eastern and Western Front as opposed to a series of larger and smaller pockets. Thus the figures collected by the German High Command “may” be assumed to be reasonably accurate. Plus, and related to the above reason, that is how the US military, in the early fifties and using the German High Command records, presented the figures. Also Soviet casualty figures are readily available up to the end of March 45. April and May were in large part just a round-up of Germans.

The next problem is whether or not to include WIA. I think it best not to as there in more room for differing definitions of “wounded”. If you count KIA, MIA/POWs up to the end of March 45 the overall ratio is roughly 4:1. For the first six months of the war it was close to 10:1, for the second half of the war from the end of June 43 to the end of March 45 it was 1.6:1. The Soviets suffered more than 50% of their combat casualties in the first year of a four year war in the East.

The Germans consistently over estimated the casualties they were inflicting on the Soviets from 43 onwards. This may be because they tended not to be in control of the battlefields after the battles. If attacking Soviet infantry are being fired upon it must be very difficult to estimate what percentage are become casualties and what percentage are just hitting the deck/ being suppressed. Even in early 44 you get German accounts of Soviet infantry being slaughtered as in 41, however, the same Soviet records that “do support reports of mass slaughter in 41”, show losses no greater than those suffered by American troops in similar actions from the autumn of 43 onwards.

All the best,

Kip.

[killmore]

You can skip the end of war figure of over 10 million losses for germans. I was suprised by that number too. Then again there was large loss of German life in the last month and obviously it includes lots of surrendering units.

In this case you would need to count Soviet losses until april 1945 too.

So aproximate the numbers you would get will be:

Germany: 5,100,000 (over 80% east front - some claim 88%)

Axis Allies: about 1,000,000? (east front)

Soviet Union: 11,000,000

Soviet allies: 200,000???

So Soviet:Axis east front losses seem to be around 2:1

[ July 25, 2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: killmore ]

[killmore]

Couple of more things to add:

Soviet combat units directly involved into offensive suffered 22 to 25% casualties to accomplish their objective in 1944-1945 (See Fritz Stoeckli, "Wartime casualty rates: Soviet and German loss rates during the second world war, the prize of victory)

Soviets never used 7th and 8th tank armies since these were created in 1944. They were in strategic reserve.

By 1944 some soviet division had effective strength of 2000.