Son Bridge Operation

[Pak40]

I need some testers for my Son Bridge Op which is now available for download at CMHQ.

Jeff

[JeffRaider]

One suggestion. . .

SPOILER

DON'T HAVE AN ENTIRE REGIMENT OF ARMOR AND HTs REINFORCE THE GERMANS ON THE SECOND DAY!!!

My little company was basically hardpressed against the infantry and AA guns, but the arrival of 5+ Panthers and innumerable HTs and AA guns ended it for me. My little 57mm AT gun, preciously preserved, didn't stand a chance.

[kverdon]

***********SPOILERS BELOW*******************

Pak 40

I played thru the Son Opperaton and did enjoy it. HOWEVER there were some problems I encountered that I wonder could be addressed. Both on Turn 2 and Turn 3 of the Opperation I managed to get my troops accross the river but at the begining of the scenario, I had a white setup zone on the far side of the river but could not setup any units there. This was especially troublesome the turn the German armor Bge showed up. The only hope I had and the only thing that worked was to lay a massive smoke screen on the bridge and rush most of the Brit armor accros and into the hollow to the right of the bridge. Took a bit to get this timed right. The town also suffered in the process as there was maybe one building in the vicinity of the bridge that was not flattened.

Looking at the scenarion editor, I can see that the system puts a few limitaions upon what can be tweeked. What needs to happen is that the Brit armor needs to setup on the Eindoven side of the bridge. This would be correct as that is the direction XXX Corps was attacking from. The trick is to how to get the system to let the US Paras establish a brigehead before the German Armor hits. The only things I can see to tweek are to expand the turns to 20 instead of 15. I'm thinking that you set it at 15 to make the allied player feel a sense of urgency as you can't really blow the bridge. 20 turns would get you a better historical setup I think. I don't know if setting the No-man's land setting would help or not (I'm thinking not). I might play arround those two settings and see what happens.

The only other things I can thing of is that the Forrest needs to get renamed from "Son Forrest" to the correct name (I've got it just have to find it.). and there needs to be more 88's near the bridge. CC2 had an 88 on the far side of the bridge and Don Burgett's account seems to back that up and makes me thing there should be a few more 88's in the town near the bridge. I'll see if I can find out more on this. I've got Burgett's "Rode to Arnhem" and Koskimaki's work on the 101st in Market Garden. I'll let you know what I turn up.

Thanks for the work,

Kevin

[This message has been edited by kverdon (edited 08-20-2000).]

[Cuchulainn]

Congratulations on an excellent start.

Having played it through I would echo the comments made above.

The German force balance needs addressing, and, most especially, I would seriously consider adding more land on the far side of the river.

The German reinforcements were forced to appear upon their arrival VERY close to the river, in plain sight, not gradually drawing near as would be more realistic, and there was for similar reasons, no way to defend in depth ton the far bank.

A great start though.

[Pak40]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I was most worried about the play balance, since I didn't have a chance to fully test it.

I feel I have to make some explanations for a couple of your suggestions and comments.

SPOILERS***

JeffRaider-

The flak unit that is the first reinforcement is only a company+ strong. This is a fictional attack added by me because without it, the third battle would be awefully dull.

The second german reinforcement(Panzer Brigade 107) actually happened. I only put two platoons of Panthers in this attack despite it being a major attack from a Brigade size force. So there is hardly a even a battallion size force let alone a regiment size force on the second day. Plus, you should have two companies of US Paras, not one. All other units, including the 57mm AT gun are historically accurate. The paras use bazookas and that 57mm gun to beat off the first attack.

The one major problem I can see is that if the Panthers started on the Son side(North) of the canal. If they did, then I will have to fix this, they are supposed attack from the far side of the map and be forced to use the bridge to get to Son. Of coarse, this depends if you are able to advance all the way to the bridge in the second battle or not.

KVERDON-

Hmmm, I ran into a similar problem in the Arnhem Bridge Op that I'm now building. I think I will change no mans land down to 0 meters, maybe I'll make it 20 turns also.

Funny thing about all the buildings being flattened- There's a photo of the Son Bridge taken in the 60s and all of the buildings are there, intact. I compared it with the old photo taken with a Panther tank within 50 meters of bridge - same buildings.

I wish I could have forced XXX Corps to attack on the Eindhoven side of the map, but limitations in the editor prevent me from doing that. You just have to rationalize it: pretend that elements from XXX Corps have already come through and were on there way to Nijmegen when they got a radio call from the troopers holding the Son Bridge. The tanks turned around to come back to Son. I think this actually happened anyway.

I put an 88 right by the bridge and another one in the field to the west (the same spots where Close Combat had them)- you need to stick with scenario default for them to appear in those spots.

Don Burgett's new book is out? cool. I've got his first (Curahee) and second (Seven Roads to Hell) books, both are excellent and very detailed. I was hoping his new one would be out before I did the Son Op.

CUCHULAINN-

I think I can give a little more depth on the far side but I have to say that it was my intent to keep the Germans close to the Canal because that's where the actual counter attacks came from. Panzer brigade 107 attacked along the canal from the east. Unfortuately, the editor doesn't give me control of where the reinforcements arrive, therefore the german player can setup anywhere on the southern side(top of the map if you're allies) of the canal.

I will be adding some trees along the banks of the canal because a photo of Son Bridge taken in the 60s shows some mature trees in the background.

Thanks for all the info and feedback

[This message has been edited by Pak40 (edited 08-21-2000).]

[kverdon]

PAK 40,

SPOILERS BELOW********************

I'm retrying the opperation with the turn limit set to 20. I exchanged on Cromwell for a Firefly and game the German's another 88. According to Burgett's Book there were 4 88's in the vacinity of the bridge. This seems to work pretty well. I got the paras accross the river by turn 3 and established a solid bridgehead. On turn 5 I then tried to attack on the far side of the river out towards Best while holding against the Panzers at the road to the bridge and the forrest on the road to Eindoven. This worked OK. I managed to hold on the road line, loosing two tanks while getting 3 Panthers and almost all the half-tracks. Things on the other side of the field did not go as well. I allotted a Sherman and Cromwell as well as the two Daimlers along with a platoon of Inf and a MMG. I backed them up with the 81's and 75's Arty. This turned into a bloody fight. Well placed German troops pinned down my squads pretty well with a 'schrek team getting both tanks. This is with both the 81'and 75's falling on the German positions. Though the Germans held me up, I'm pretty sure they also took some heavy casualties.

Some notes:

1. I WISH I could get the 88's to stay put, the AI seems to like to move them. Did you mention that you could accept the default setup and this would happen?. How do I do that?

2.Did the Panzer Bge really have that many Panters?. I would normally expect a few MkIV's in the mix. This could also be a playbalance consideration.

3. while this a fun opperation playing the allies against the AI. I don't think that it would make a good PBEM scenario. I don't see how a allied player could force a bridge crossing and hold the far side of the river against a competant German commander.

thanks for putting this together.

Kevin

[kverdon]

Pak 40

PPS. If you liked Burgett's books, Have you read George Koskimaki's books. He put together books comprised mostly from personal accounts of 101st Paras for the 3 major Opps, Normandy, Market-Garden, Bastonge. I've read his books on Normandy and Bastonge and they are very good. Looking forward to "Hells Highway", his book on the 101st in Market Garden.

[Pak40]

Hi Kverdon,

answers to your questions:

"1. I WISH I could get the 88's to stay put, the AI seems to like to move them. Did you mention that you could accept the default setup and this would happen?. How do I do that?"

Unfortunately, as I've recently found out, the AI does relocate the 88s after the first battle no matter if you stick to scenario defaults or not. I don't think the editor gives control to the designer for making fixed units. The only alternative is to place Pill boxes there instead of 88s, but that would make things unfair I think.

"2.Did the Panzer Bge really have that many Panters?. I would normally expect a few MkIV's in the mix. This could also be a playbalance consideration."

Actually more. 'It Never Snows In September' is the source I used for this info. It actually states that they used around 40 battletanks and every mention of the type of tank is a Panther. This is consistent with German doctrine - they keep the same type tanks within the same battalions. The book goes on to state that they were only able attack with a few tanks at a time because of the narrow appoach to the bridge. So what I've done in the new version of my Operation is put some trees on the German side of the canal so as to give the troopers some cover and restrict the German tanks to narrow appoaches. This should make the tanks a little more vulnerable.

"3. while this a fun opperation playing the allies against the AI. I don't think that

it would make a good PBEM scenario. I don't see how a allied player could force a

bridge crossing and hold the far side of the river against a competant German commander."

Hopefully, the new version I put out tonight will balance things out. But, Let's put your theory to test. How bout I play as US and you play as Germans in a PBEM with my new version , starting tonight?

Thanks for the info on the books, Im always looking for new material.

Jeff

[kverdon]

Jeff,

>>Hopefully, the new version I put out tonight will balance things out. But, Let's put your theory to test. How bout I play as US and you play as Germans in a PBEM with my new version , starting tonight?<<

I would really like to take you up on that offer but I'm leaving out of town for a week this afternoon. I'd be game when I get back though,

Kevin

[kverdon]

Jeff,

I tried Son as the Germans. Is there a way to get the Para's to move to the bridge faster. The Para's did not make a play for the North Son Town until Turn 6. With both groups of Panthers deployed to the North of Son Bridge and covering the open spaces of approach it was a slaughter. The AI tried a double envelopement move with most of the tanks in the east and the majority of the Paras in the west. By the 6th move, Almost all the allied armor is KO with me loosing just the two marders to mortar/arty and 2 of the Wirblwinds. What about placing objective flags at the ends of the bridge? Can you do that in an OP?.

Played it again as the Paras and it played out very nicely. Got a bridgehead by the end of turn 2 or 3. This let me depoly all my armor on the South side of the Bridge. This is where playing the op before came back to bite me <G>. I was sure the AI would enter all their armor to the east of the Eindoven road so I set up all my armor their to meet it. Boy was I suprised when the AI decided this time to mass his armor way to the west, over near where you used to have the Pillboxes. I had to repositon in a hurry. Made for a great armor fight after the AI routed out the 2 Para platoons and 2 tanks I'd placed over there to "mop up" hehe.

All in all, this really makes for a fun opperation when played as the paras. As the Germans, its no contest. Still would like to see how it PBEM's.

Kevin