Scenario Ideas

[flyingcursor]

I've spent huge amounts of time over the years making scenarios for war games. The problem is, I cannot abide historical inaccuracy. As a result I become frustrated whenever I try to make a historical scenario. No matter how great the resource material on a given situation, there's always something missing that I have to fill in.

Does this happen to other historical scenario designers? How do you handle those gray areas where you just can't find the info you want?

Then it occured to me that if you look at the number of days of combat then compare that to the scale of CM, it would appear that there must be 10s of thousands of little battles that will never make the history books. Thus, the so called hypothetical scenario indeed becomes a valid option.

Opinions?

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"Both sides agree not to bomb civilians" - Washington Post, Sept 3, 1939

[Wild Bill Wilder]

Oh yes, Flying Cursor. Sooner or later, you'll have to improvise to one degree or another. A totally historical scenario in reality is impossible.

Who knows how many trees there were in the fields, precisely what weapons each unit carried. Did they have satchel charges? And how many men really were in each squad?

And what was the nature of each tank commander? Retiring or brash?

And what was the name of each platoon leader, each squad leader? And are there ruts in that road on the map?

Height levels, precise unit locations, dozens of things that make itimpossible to have an "exact" historical recreation.

Save yourself that frustration, Cursor. One thing you always want to aim for, the "feel" of the battle. If you can convey that and still stay within the general parameters of the fight, you'll always do well.

Mixing historicity with playability has always been the ultimate dilemma for the scenario/operations designer and it always will be.

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Wild Bill

Lead Tester

Scenario Design Team

Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord

billw@matrixgames.com

[flyingcursor]

Thanks Wild Bill

Having played many of your teams scenarios for various games I often wondered if maybe someone went back in time for the missing pieces. I never thought anyone would accept the "feel of the battle" concept. I'd hear roars of "Hey! Wittman's tank was 20 meters further south when that battle started!"

I had once mentioned on the TOAW forum using a principle of "relative strength" vs "actual number of rifle squads and trucks" to achieve the effect and was chastised.

That will teach me to listen to chastisement.

BTW it's "flyingcursor" one word. My full name are "Cannot find email name someone else has not used so I use flyingcursor"

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"Both sides agree not to bomb civilians" - Washington Post, Sept 3, 1939

[dfgardner]

As a non designer but a player I find being presented with as close to the actual forces involved in the scenario is what piques my interest.

I like to see if, faced with the same relative tactical decisions the real leaders faced, I can better their actions.

As a player, I understand the limitations a designer must face (terrain, exact placement etc). Just try to get me close to the units involved and I'm satisfied.

That's also why my preference is for historical scenarios or operations rather than the DYO stuff (not slamming the DYOers...DYO is a fantastic element that allows all gamers the ability to tailor this game to their own preferences.)

I don't find the challenge in constructing 2 elite forces made up of units that really would not be found together as fun as facing the challenges the "real" guy did.

BTW Wild Bill, any possibility of posting a TOE of what the various units were made up of on the web site: ie, the standard US armor company in 1944 had x units represented by this game pieces, etc.

Or, has someone already done this somewhere?

[Keith]

dfgardner,

If you haven't already, check out my historical scenarios on the Gamer's Net Scenario Depot:

"The Bloody Causeway"

"Indian Fighting"

I too prefer to play and create historically accurate scenarios.

[Robert Olesen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dfgardner:

As a non designer but a player I find being presented with as close to the actual forces involved in the scenario is what piques my interest.

I like to see if, faced with the same relative tactical decisions the real leaders faced, I can better their actions.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An interesting subject

For me, the key point is decisions. I like to play with a "historical" setup (as close as possible), but the key question is whether the scenario presents me with problems and decisions that reflect the actual situation well.

[dfgardner]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robert Olesen:

An interesting subject

For me, the key point is decisions[/b<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Robert, agree 100%. I like to start with the historical setup and see what develops. I also think playing against a "live" opponent who is interpreting the situation presented and making his/her decisions accordingly is very challenging.

[dfgardner]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Keith:

dfgardner,

If you haven't already, check out my historical scenarios on the Gamer's Net Scenario Depot:

"The Bloody Causeway"

"Indian Fighting"

I too prefer to play and create historically accurate scenarios.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! Thanks Keith, excellent site. Re: Scenarios: Keep 'em coming. Folks like you taking effort to design scenarios like these is what will keep this interesting for some time to come.

[flyingcursor]

Keith,

I'll do that. Maybe I should upload mine there as well.

[Wild Bill Wilder]

That is a good suggestion, dfg. I don't know of anyone who has produced sucha a document.

In reality, the designers pretty well laid out the general OOB of units of to company level, which is a nice feature.

What I lament sometimes is the lack of ability to doctor these units sometimes. You can do some things. Some you can't. I'm going to lobby strongly for some change here.

There are books out there that give these TOEs for the different countries. The fascinating thing is that almost none of them agree as to the details.

And of course, a weapons platoon usually attached its units to the rifle platoons for support.

But here, I am diverging to an entirely different subject.

I too love historical scenarios, as close as they can be and still be playable. I strive for that in most of the ones I have done, with the exception of a few "hypos" such as SPR.

I admire greatly the efforts of Keith and so many other great designers out there who aim for a good historical recreation. I played Indian Fighting and enjoyed it very much.

There is a place for all of them, hypothetical and historical, as long as they are fun and challenging.

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Wild Bill

Lead Tester

Scenario Design Team

Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord

billw@matrixgames.com

[Wild Bill Wilder]

This is for you Flyingcursor (right?) and anyone else interested. There will always be negative critics (you know the difference of course), gainsayers, and folks who will disagree with what you are doing.

You will find within the gaming community those who are never pleased with your efforts or your ideas. I call this the "vociferous minority."

I'm not being critical. I am just stating the facts.

You need to work within a framework that is comfortable for you. A good scenario or operation has a good "feel" to it.

When you get it right, it's fun. It's challenging. And when it feels real good to you, it most likely will to others.

As you know, I've done rather extensive scenario designing for both TOAW and TOAWII.

I did not please everyone. I didn't think that I would. By and large, however, they were well accepted and enjoyed by a lot of TOAW gamers. That was good enough for me. That is why I did them.

So do your scenarios in your own style with your own personal touches. Test them. Get others to test them. Fine tune them and get them out to the public. I look forward to seeing your handiwork.

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Wild Bill

Lead Tester

Scenario Design Team

Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord

billw@matrixgames.com

[flyingcursor]

Thanks again Wild Bill.

Just a joke about the flyingcursor thing.

Anyway, I have 4 to tidy up then I'll get them out.

fc

[Wild Bill Wilder]

Bring 'em on...the warriors are restless!

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Wild Bill

Lead Tester

Scenario Design Team

Combat Mission-Beyond Overlord

billw@matrixgames.com

[David Stone]

Historical scenarios is my thing. And I spend much more time reading and then designing than I ever spend actually playing the games.

There always is alot of gaps you have to fill in-- even when you have super detailed information.

My Arnhem bridge scenario certainly employed some "guess-work" in some areas, even after consulting 4 or 5 good sources.

Post what you have got for testing!

Stoner

[Disaster@work]

Unlike most CMers I play Combat Mission purely as a game. I do have a background in reading WWII history and know a fair bit about it (certainly nothing approaching many of the regular CM forum members though) but I just found CM to be a really fun game. Therefore, when I design a map, I do so without resorting to history but according to the rules, even the gamier ones. I love 'scripting' events by using the geography I've created and bringing in reinforcements at what I think are dramatic moments.

[Aacooper]

I love to design historical scenarios -- the more info I have the better. There's still gray areas, and I'll give some examples of what I knew and how I proceeded:

Kogenbroich (available on CMHQ): I had one book as a source, and I knew the Allied OOB and TOE exactly. There was a sketch map in the book, and a description of the weapons systems the Germans used. Terraserver didn't have a picture of the town from space, so I made the map based on the sketch map and terrain descriptions. German OOB was made up for balance.

Task Force Blackshear Attacks Climbach (available on CMHQ): One book as source, and I knew the US OOB perfectly. No map was available, so I made one from whole cloth, and I used the same technique for the Germans.

Tettingen (trying to balance): One book, with a sketch map, and BOTH OOB's. This will be fairly historical, I had to invent the terrain elevations, though.

Kommerscheidt (trying to balance): One book, with a topographic map, and US OOB. It's simply a matter of guesstimating what isn't available. I know Martin already made a Kommerscheidt scenario included on the CD, I got this one 95% finished before I realized I was doing a certain amount of duplication. The maps are very different, and mine is a little bigger.

Holtzwihr (just now making preparations): Website as source, with a detailed survey map, and a description of the US OOB. There's only a description of the German OOB, no mention of which unit, so that's the stuff I'll have to fill in.

It's fun to throw in the names of the actual people where it's mentioned. For example, Lt. Fleig rides again in Kommerscheidt (he survived, and shows up again in Bulge histories).

[flyingcursor]

It's nice to hear from others what they do for these things. Like Disaster@work I like to manufacture scenario ideas based on the game itself many times since is is far more creative and less tedious. However I find a certain sense of satisfaction if a historical scenario as well. I am especially glad to hear that people like Aacooper has designed good historical scenarios with no more info then I have usually possessed in the attempt.

BTW I have three new scenarios on TGN. Look for the ones by Rick Slater. My favorite is roadblock followed by Down the Draw.

[Guest Napoleon1944]

I spend a lot of time researching terrain and maps. My main interest is the terrain itself. I feel the terrain has the most impact on a scenario. I will find myself purchasing boardgames for maps. Has anyone used the topographical maps offered on the site in the webring? I am also interested in duplicating actual events when possible. I consider myself a realist. For us, its a never ending battle.

[Fellonmyhead]

Well there is always going to be a trade-off between historical accuracy and playability; and as some have mentioned, the game system itself has its restrictions.

Neither gives the perfectionist the right amount of leeway for his accuracy. When computer gaming was in its infancy (I think my best computer game was The Hobbit on the ZX Spectrum at the time), I strove to produce an historically perfect feudal environment in a role-playing game. The ultimate result was a game never played, as a perfectionist is never satisfied. However, I did learn a bit of history.

So since then, I have always allowed the game to rule, and never the campaign milieu; but in paradox prefer that I am using something historically possible.

I would like to produce accurate terrain, actual OOB's and truly historical encounters; but I feel if I spent my time doing this I would have no time to play (as I have experienced before).

But for those of you who do have time for near-perfection, thank you for producing the material we all dream of

Fellonmyhead

Mother dropped me.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wild Bill Wilder:

That is a good suggestion, dfg. I don't know of anyone who has produced sucha a document.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John Sands 'Usorg.rtf' and 'Britorg.rtf' should fit the bill. Try searching the web for them, I have them somewhere. He has pulled together a lot of data in those two documents.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-03-2000).]

[Teamski]

I used the book Night Drop to create several D-Day paratrooper scenarios on the PC, all the way back to the Wargame Construction set! I finally created a scenario from the book using a pretty specific map within the book. It recreates the battle for Les Drouries. I'd like to get your guys opinions of it. I think the map is pretty damn accurate, down to the actual houses AND hedgerows! The Carentan operation in the game did a good job of creating the feel of the area around the town. The designer, though, didn't accurately label the towns and the roads were pretty generalized. With this scenario, I wanted complete accuracy. I walked this area this summer and I feel I got it pretty much right. I even included the Naval Artillery spotter mentioned in Currahee and in Night Drop. Let me know if any of you want to see it and I can run it off to you. Thanks!

-Ski

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"The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........"

[This message has been edited by Teamski (edited 11-03-2000).]