manchildstein (ii) Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 is it true that a detachment of the brandenburg regiment was part of an 8th panzer division vanguard which initally took the "bridges over the dvina at pskov?" if so, did the brandenburg regiment have any stugs? from what i've seen of the 8th panzer oob, they had no stugs (at the time ('41) these were in infantry divisions and were attached to corps and army, correct?). to make a long story short i'm making a scenario based upon the 8th panzer's early thrust to pskov, called 'road to pskov.' in it i have 38t tanks (as the oob i found said they had) but have included stugs for extra suppport, ostensibly reasoning that the stugs are part of the brandenburg detachment. in short, are stugs at all appropriate for a scenario representing the early run by the 8th panzer to pskov? one other question... are pine forest tiles appropriate for a 'road to pskov' scenario or should i be using standard 'woods?' thanks in advance andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 I don't think the Lehrregiment z.b.V. 800 'Brandenburg' had any Stugs. They were basically commandos - a bit difficult being sneaky and full of surprise if 20 tons metal screech up behind you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted November 30, 2002 Author Share Posted November 30, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: I don't think the Lehrregiment z.b.V. 800 'Brandenburg' had any Stugs. They were basically commandos - a bit difficult being sneaky and full of surprise if 20 tons metal screech up behind you ok, thanks how about the terrain? i was looking at your page and saw something about 'birch forest' in that area... do you figure there were any 'pine forest tiles' on the 'road to pskov?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted December 1, 2002 Author Share Posted December 1, 2002 arghh... i meant dvinsk and not pskov... anyone know about pine versus non-pine forests around there?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted December 1, 2002 Author Share Posted December 1, 2002 i searched some more and found out that the commander of the 8th panzer at the time was "brandenberger"... i wonder if the "brandenberg regiment" was the 8th's... anyway... i'll figure out something for this scenario... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Rapier Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Originally posted by manchildstein II: [QB]is it true that a detachment of the brandenburg regiment was part of an 8th panzer division vanguard which initally took the "bridges over the dvina at pskov?" if so, did the brandenburg regiment have any stugs? in short, are stugs at all appropriate for a scenario representing the early run by the 8th panzer to pskov? one other question... are pine forest tiles appropriate for a 'road to pskov' scenario or should i be using standard 'woods?' /QB]I would be very surprised indeed of any members of the Brandenburg commando regiment accompanied 8th Panzer Div on its drive to the Dvina. The divisional CO was called 'Brandenberger' though. 8th Panzer had Pz 38s in its light companies, PzIVD in its heavy companies and a smattering of PzIIs in the various light platoons scattered through the panzer battalions. It was slightly unusual in that it had a three battalion panzer regiment though. The only Stugs in Army Group North were attached to the infantry armies, so there wouldn't be any with 8th PD. Having said that, in the HPS 7th PD campaign addon for 'Tigers on the Prowl', 7th Panzer Divisions panzer regiment (also with 38ts) seems to get a platoon of Stugs to help out on a fairly regular basis! The trees in that area are mixed coniferous and deciduous with 'pines, birches and firs' predominating according to Lithuanian govt. website. Cheers Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Like Andreas said, Brandenburgers were commandos who were trained to operate behind enemy lines. Most of these men spoke Russian and Eastern European languages and many lived in these countries prior to the war. If I recall, the Brandenburgers tried a Coup de Main of the bridge of the Divna, with 8th Panzer's spearheads charging hard behind them. The Brandenburgers posed as Russian troops fleeing the Germans. [ December 02, 2002, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Keith ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted December 2, 2002 Author Share Posted December 2, 2002 ok... thanks everyone... does anyone know if this site: http://www.freeport-tech.com/wwii has anything approaching accurate oobs? i might have asked this already, but were the early model (75mm 'short') PZ IV tanks considered 'medium' or 'heavy?' as for the terrain, it would be 'cool' if we had a 'pine and deciduous mixed' tile in the editor, but for now i fink i'll go with mostly scattered trees, regular woods, and a 'smattering' of pine tiles... i found some photos of 'das reich in the north' and there were thick patches of birch in the background.... finally, from the replies i received it looks as though PZ IVs can be include and the scenario will be 'historically' (hysterically?) accurate... thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 The 75L24 equipped infantry tanks were in the medium companies, while the ones classed as 'III' (Panzer III, 38(t) and 35(t)) were in the light companies, as were the Panzer II. I think birch forest is never wrong in that area, but scattered trees will also do the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevsharr Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 The Brandenberger's were indeed commando's.They were mostly Volkdeutsch[men of german descent living outside of the reich].They wore enemy uniform's until battle was joined then they removed them to reveal the german uniform's underneath,this was supposed to be allowed under the Geneva Convention but if the russian's caught you you'd probably be shot anyway. Most stug's were organized into independent sturmgeshutz brigade's and were usually at the disposal of Korp headquarter's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Rapier Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 Originally posted by manchildstein II: ok... thanks everyone... does anyone know if this site: http://www.freeport-tech.com/wwii has anything approaching accurate oobs? i might have asked this already, but were the early model (75mm 'short') PZ IV tanks considered 'medium' or 'heavy?' Yes, the OBs are very good although the German TO&Es are done using German symbology, which is all very interesting and historically accurate but very hard to read if you've been raised on old NATO symbols! 1941 Panzer Battalions had two light companies and a medium company (generally). The light companies got the Pz 35/38/IIIs and the medium companies the Panzer IVs. Light platoons of Pz I/II were also scattered between them (although IIRC battalions equipped with Pz35/38 didn't have any Pz II). Continuing shortages of PzIVs meant many medium companies only had two platoons of four PzIV each. I have recently run a couple of operational miniatures games covering the odessey of 56th Panzer Corps & 8th Panzer certainly saw plenty of action in the 'Dash to the Dvina' and the 'Zoltsy Hedgehog'. I also did a Spearhead mini campaign entitled 'The Race for Leningrad' with Manstein & Reinhardts Corps in a competitive advance - so everyone got to play the Germans and take it in turn playing the Russians;) Cheers Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 Originally posted by Keith: Like Andreas said, Brandenburgers were commandos who were trained to operate behind enemy lines. Most of these men spoke Russian and Eastern European languages and many lived in these countries prior to the war. If I recall, the Brandenburgers tried a Coup de Main of the bridge of the Divna, with 8th Panzer's spearheads charging hard behind them. The Brandenburgers posed as Russian troops fleeing the Germans.I don't have an analytical history of the Brandenburg Division (that was what it became later), but I do own a 'factual' novel by Will Berthold which he claims is based on real experiences, and it mentions this raid. ISTR either Glantz in 'The early period of war' or Erickson in 'The road to Stalingrad' mention it somewhere too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevsharr Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 James Lucas's book"Kommando-german special forces in world war II"cover's the brandenberg and it's operation's quite extensively.here is some info. #1 company was made up of men who could speak Estonian,Latvian,Lithuanian,Finnish and russian.#2 comp.was made up of men who had lived in the former German african colonies,and who were proficient not only in the native languages and dialect's of those area's,but also in english and Portugease.The Volksdeutche of #3 comp.were from czechoslovakia and spoke the languages and dialect's of that country.In #4 comp.the men had been drawn from eartern europe and had command of Polsh,West Russian,Ukrainian and Ruthenian as well as the local dialect's peculiar to those region's. The wide variety of tongues spoken and understood in the 1st battalion could be matched by the men of other battalion's and somewhere in the Regiment,or so it was claimed,could be found at least one soldier with the knowledge of such rare langueges as Tibetan or Pushtu." I believe this book has been re-released and is recommended. [ December 03, 2002, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: kevsharr ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevsharr Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 Here's an interesting site that includes info on the Brandeberg ihttp://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/3351/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted December 3, 2002 Author Share Posted December 3, 2002 what i'm currently testing is a scenario where the germans are clearing a stretch of road on the way to the 'dubissa gorge'... there's a hill called the 'observation post' and 'over the past couple of days aerial recon has spotted soviet work crews clearing los pathways from the OP to sections of the road below...' ... the 'clearings' are represented by 'rough' tiles... most everything else is a combination of scattered trees, woods, and marsh... there is a small town called 'divina'... anyway, the force includes 'elements from the divisional "recon" battalion and a company of PZ IVs.. so there are 10 PZ IV 5 PZ II 4 37mm Halftrack 5 MG Armored Car 8 Light Armored Car 6 8-Wheeled AC 1 Motorized Recon Company it's 60 turns so i'm not sure how the armored cars and such will hold up with their low ammo loadouts... those 37mm halftracks have got to be one of my favorite vehicles... such a high loadout... ...in light of the above... might tweak and remove the pz IIs for some PZ Is instead... oh, the area is 'defended by whatever the soviets could scrape together... tanks... guns... infantry... did i say heavy tanks?'... it should be a 'blast' but i must say that 4 turns into it on the current test... it could be a real bugbear... already lost an armored car to a gun on the 'op' hill... didn't fink they could see _that_ far... the way the road is set up... it's very difficult for any of the vehicles to wander far from it...so it's a 'vehicle-heavy' battle with 'vehicle-unfriendly terrain'... (damp conditions)... i guess it calls for 'tactical subtlety'... anyway... these units haven't even reached the gorge yet so the brandenburg chaps are out of the picture for this one... i'll post a real briefing after some more testing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Rapier Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Originally posted by manchildstein II: [QB] anyway, the force includes 'elements from the divisional "recon" battalion and a company of PZ IVs.. so there are 10 PZ IV 5 PZ II 4 37mm Halftrack 5 MG Armored Car 8 Light Armored Car 6 8-Wheeled AC 1 Motorized Recon Company /QB]This is virtually the _entire_ recce battalion - they only had an armoured car company, 1-3 motorised/motorcycle infantry companies and a heavy weapons company. The Sdkfz 251/10s were used as platoon commanders vehicles in armoured infantry companies so you wouldn't be very likely to find them operating independantly. A more likely advanced guard would be the recce battalion: Armoured Car Company: 1 x platoon of 6 x 6 or 8 wheelers 2 x platoon of 6 x 4 wheelers 1-3 Motorised/motorcyle recon companies 1 x recce weapons company: 1 x 75mm infantry gun section (2 guns) 1 x AT platoon (3 x Pak 36 AT guns) 1 x engineer platoon Breakdowns and battle casualties may well have thinned this lot out. It is possible that they may be supported by a detachment from the panzer regiment, but the Germans weren't keen on splitting their panzer battalions up. If they did have a panzer detachment it would most likely be either the regimental or one of the battalion recce platoons (5 x PzII) or possibly a light panzer company. The recce battalion would almost certainly be accompanied by artillery observers from the divisonal artillery regiment, possibly only a battery but more likely a full battalion. If the recce battalion wasn't leading (unless the opposition was very light it wouldn't normally try to fight the division forward) the division would more likely be led by the panzer regiment supported by the armoured infantry battalion, one of the armoured engineer companies either from the divisional engineer battalion or one of the infantry regimental companies and as much artillery and air support as could be provided. The divisonal anti-tank battalion would be on call to deal with any significant quantities of armour encountered. Cheers Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted December 4, 2002 Author Share Posted December 4, 2002 --It is possible that they may be supported by a detachment from the panzer regiment, but the Germans weren't keen on splitting their panzer battalions up.-- ok... that makes sense... thanks for the 'lowdown' on the armored car company composition... 2 platoons of 6... i was going with 4 platoons of 4... there was apparently also a light armored car platoon... thus the mg armored cars i was going to include... i will have to go back and re-think this... i have read somewhere that the german recon would fight... but maybe this action is too much for them... although if i made it all recon with no tanks (more infantry) they might be able to handle it... especially with some 105mm fos... ...as for the 37mm halftracks... i'd thought i'd seen them in an order of battle, but upon review it looks like there were 3, towed 37mm guns to the recon battalion... anyway, thanks for 'keeping me honest'... [ December 04, 2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: manchildstein II ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 At the start of Barbarossa, some German PDs were at above TO&E strength (110-120%), so after just a few days you would not notice any losses. </font>APC BN 1 S.R.1 (w/HTs) reinforced by 15 Pz II and 3 Pz III </font>one TD coy 3x 50mm and 9x 37mm </font>mot 2nd BN S.R.1 (trucks) heavy weapons towed by HTs, 3 ATGs </font>2nd BN AR (mot)73 12x 10,5cm lFH18 and HTs </font>1 Battery AA BN 85 (mot) 2x8,8cm AA (SP) and 3 2cm AA </font>Medical team </font>Hope that helps a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 Was a double post, so I just decided to post the make-up of KG Raus, June/July 41, same sector as 8. and 1.PD </font>HQ 6th Schuetzenbrig.(mot) </font>4th S.R. (mot) (two BNs including one infantry how Coy w/12 IGs) </font>2nd BN 11th PR (HQ and 3 coys - 60 tanks) </font>2nd and 3rd BN 76th AR (mot) 12x10,5cm 8x15cm 4x 10cm Kanone </font>3rd Coy 57th Pioneer BN (mot) </font>1 AT Coy (9 50mm ATG) </font>1 AA Abt. (12x8,8cm 36x2cm) </font>trains </font>In both cases, these were very heavy hitting units, fully mobile, at least partly armoured, with substantial artillery support. Both columns received aerial reconnaissance support from the organic recon squadrons (Hs 126 planes). The whole corps advanced four such columns along the main axis of advance, with flank protection undertaken by the armoured reconnaissance battalions. Stupid UBB code, effing piece of... [ December 04, 2002, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Andreas ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Rapier Posted December 5, 2002 Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by Andreas: In both cases, these were very heavy hitting units, fully mobile, at least partly armoured, with substantial artillery support. Both columns received aerial reconnaissance support from the organic recon squadrons (Hs 126 planes). The whole corps advanced four such columns along the main axis of advance, with flank protection undertaken by the armoured reconnaissance battalions. This sounds more like it - if 8th PD was operating divison level Kampfgruppen along these lines then you can have a much more 'interesting' force in the scenario than a bunch of armoured cars trying to assault entrenched positions! Cheers Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted December 5, 2002 Author Share Posted December 5, 2002 Originally posted by Martin Rapier: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas: In both cases, these were very heavy hitting units, fully mobile, at least partly armoured, with substantial artillery support. Both columns received aerial reconnaissance support from the organic recon squadrons (Hs 126 planes). The whole corps advanced four such columns along the main axis of advance, with flank protection undertaken by the armoured reconnaissance battalions. This sounds more like it - if 8th PD was operating divison level Kampfgruppen along these lines then you can have a much more 'interesting' force in the scenario than a bunch of armoured cars trying to assault entrenched positions! Cheers Martin</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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