Walker Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 In a QB one of my tanks (a Hellcat) was ordered to reverse along the edge of a forest, then around a 90-degree corner, to continue reversing along the forest edge, then to fast-move on a 180-degree arc away from and back towards the woods, and finally to hunt towards a section of the woods where the trees were only about 15 metres deep. I checked the waypoints and they were far enough away from the treeline (about 6 metres), nor were there any slopes or other unpassable terrain nearby. What it actually did was reverse all the way to where it was supposed to go, completely ignoring the 180-degree fast semicircle move away from the woods and the hunt command back towards the treeline. As a result it ended its movement backed up against the thin strip of forest it was supposed to be facing. Also, instead of keeping to the waypoints, the Hellcat really scraped the edge of the forest. Has anyone got an explanation for this weird behaviour? At no point was the tank targeted or fired at. It was quite alarming to watch and the incident will worry me until I know what I did wrong. [ August 29, 2002, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Walker ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 The edge of tree terrain cells are fuzzy in CMBO. You probably touched some actual tree square meter and the TacAI re-wrote the path. In addition, such occasions will often turn a final "rotate" command into a move or fast command (ouch). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Tell me about it, I had a jadgtiger do that trick and expose it's flank two three shermies. Shermies that didn't have a prayer of a frontal kill. But my dear little JT rotates IN FULL VIEW of the shermies. I hope CMBB has a self-preservation algorithm to prevent such insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Originally posted by xerxes: Tell me about it, I had a jadgtiger do that trick and expose it's flank two three shermies. Shermies that didn't have a prayer of a frontal kill. But my dear little JT rotates IN FULL VIEW of the shermies. I hope CMBB has a self-preservation algorithm to prevent such insanity.I just love battles where the German AI goes suicidal! Stinkin krauts with their high falutin killing toys! The AI does pull some wierd stunts once in a while. In a recent QB I ordered a Priest to backup about 20 meters and it did and it kept going and going until it was out of the battle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker Posted August 30, 2002 Author Share Posted August 30, 2002 Originally posted by redwolf: The edge of tree terrain cells are fuzzy in CMBO. You probably touched some actual tree square meter and the TacAI re-wrote the path. In addition, such occasions will often turn a final "rotate" command into a move or fast command (ouch). ------------------ Now that's really interesting. I don't know how you come up with this stuff, but I'm sure glad you shared it. What still mystifies me is why oh why the tank ignored the waypoints which were placed precisely to ensure 5 m plus distance from the treeline - I guess 5 m are not 100% enough. Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 I once set up a path between two unconnected patches of trees for some tanks. I was very careful when setting the waypoints to make sure the entire length of the path was in clear terrain. But when I hit GO, the program redrew all my paths into something really tortured that went over a fair amount of ground to get to the endpoint. It took me a couple of turns to undo the confusion. Fortunately there were no enemy units with an LOS that could have shot at them while they were prancing all over the map. Since then, I've learned to give any kind of impassible terrain a wider berth. With vehicles that can also include anything to do with water as the adjacent ground, while clear, may be soft and a bog trap. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 After you hit 'go' in CM, you never know what will happen next, and not nearly everything is logical in anyway. Last night I was playing a TCP game where one of my AT guns targeted a Mark IV and fired. First shot missed, tank was not moving at any time during this BTW, and then it just stopped targeting it and sat there for the rest of the round? Fumbled with the shells I suppose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Originally posted by Walker: Originally posted by redwolf: The edge of tree terrain cells are fuzzy in CMBO. You probably touched some actual tree square meter and the TacAI re-wrote the path. In addition, such occasions will often turn a final "rotate" command into a move or fast command (ouch). ------------------ Now that's really interesting. I don't know how you come up with this stuff, but I'm sure glad you shared it. Quick test: draw a line of "woods" and a line of "tall pines" directly next to each other. Watch the terrain. There is a small "walkway" of open ground between the two. It looks like a vehicle can pass it But now select any unit on the map, go into "view 5" other this walkway, hit ] some times to maximum and say "L" for the LOS tool. Now pass your mouse pointer over this walkway. You will see that it is not a constant-wise path, if you watch the LOS tool and its display what terrain you are over. And in all examples I have seen, there will also be instances where the woods and the tall pines touch each other, blocking this way for vehicles. Vehicles cannot go through this forest. However, they can usually hide at the beginning of such a path. Maybe I can post a screenshot later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 redwolf: Definitely true, the path is not straight. I was recently trying to drive an HT thru such a path in "Into The East" and it took several turns b/c the HT would get stuck, and I'd have to completely replot the orders a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma of Finland Posted September 5, 2002 Share Posted September 5, 2002 About paths and tanks: my guess is that the size of the tank affects to the passing such a path between two different types of forest. Experiences: A KT wouldn't go through, just back out after going halfway. A Hellcat didn't even enter the path at first time, but after re-plotting it went nicely through the path. About rotating changing to move/fast: I'm not sure if this is about the ability of a tank rotating in one place. All the tanks of today can do it, but not all the tanks of WWII. So giving a rotate command to certain tanks would force it to make a small movement. Please correct, if I got it wrong. /kuma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tecumseh Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 Originally posted by Kuma of Finland: About paths and tanks: my guess is that the size of the tank affects to the passing such a path between two different types of forest.These corridors are quite complex things. If there is a long straight boundary between woods and pines, the gap is too small for vehicles to pass through. But in complex "checkerboard" type patterns with shorter boundaries there are gaps of varying sizes, which seem to permit certain vehicles through (based on silhouette maybe?). My only advice is that the narrower it looks, the narrower it is! If there is a bit in the middle of the corridor where it looks like the two tree textures touch, nothing will get through. [ September 05, 2002, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: tecumseh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker Posted September 10, 2002 Author Share Posted September 10, 2002 Further my first post in this thread, the crack Hellcat that performed the ‘worrying antics’ does actually seem to be significantly below par in more than one respect compared with its two apparently identical Hellcat buddies. In a further instance of ‘doing things its own way’, later in the battle it was supposed to hunt up a gentle gradient and stop just below the crest, facing the known enemy threat. It did exactly that, but then, to my dismay, performed a little forward right-reverse left -forward number until it was broadside to the assumed threat. Luckily my opponent had decided to reverse his tank out of sight. (Note: there was no terrain other than open ground anywhere nearby, and nothing to unsettle it in the direction it ended up facing.) Then, after I had sorted things out and got the Hellcat facing the right way, a nice big fat StuH trundles across its field of fire, 300 m away, presenting a perfect flank shot for as long as it takes to get off 3 shots. And what does my crack Cat do? It targets…targets…targets…targets…and another golden opportunity rumbles by. Still later, it shoots its tungsten rounds at a HT (missing quite dismally). My Hellcat from hell is finally killed, in a hull-down ambush position, by the StuH, after missing its first (and only) shot. In a post somewhere on this board someone recently voiced the theory that some units are ‘born’ with better (or less good) skills than other seemingly identical ones. IIRC, his example was onboard mortars, and he stated that specific units seemed to provide more accurate fire throughout their ammo loads than their identical twins under identical conditions (same experience level, under c&c of the same hq etc.). After above experience I tend to agree, and I wonder if there is a link between the unit’s specified commander and its battlefield performance. IOW, will Sgt Collard, who commanded the Hellcat from hell, provide the same shameful performance in a future battle as in the current one? Sgt Collard, we’ll be watching you… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slider92+ Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 I think the main problem described here has to do with the forest areas causing obstacles to the AI, However, regarding the comment about the vehicle that reversed itself off of the map, I believe it was panicked and retreating. I have witnessed this behavior many times in CM. I'm pretty sure they have programmed this into the AI. I also believe that each units have various abilities. Notice that some infantry squads start to move earlier than others in the same platoon, for example. Also, one of the more interesting things I have seen is a vehicle "kill" simply by scaring the @#$% out of a tank crew. I have seen this happen when a tank in perfectly good condition, suddenly sees an lethal threat poised for an immediate kill. On rare occasions, the crew simply bails out right there without a shot being fired! Surely someone else has witnessed this?? I think it is a great and realistic aspect of the AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted September 12, 2002 Share Posted September 12, 2002 Originally posted by Slider92+: Also, one of the more interesting things I have seen is a vehicle "kill" simply by scaring the @#$% out of a tank crew. I have seen this happen when a tank in perfectly good condition, suddenly sees an lethal threat poised for an immediate kill. On rare occasions, the crew simply bails out right there without a shot being fired! Surely someone else has witnessed this?? I think it is a great and realistic aspect of the AI.Yes, I've seen it. I was playing Chance Encounter from the CMBO demo last week, as the Germans. After the fight was essentially over, the only real "threat" left was a Sherman that had been immobilized by an offmap 81mm round, it was behind the scattered trees on the Ami side of the map. I rushed the thing w/ about three platoons of Faust-100m toting VG troops, and one squad was credited w/ the kill while still being 50m+ away- but it did NOT fire a Faust or grenade...I guess they got a scare-kill! I carefully checked that no other squad fired a faust or grenade at the Sherman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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