Tank Tactics

[Maximus]

OK, this may seem second nature by now, but it might be helpful to the newbies.

Since CM demonstrates that TANKS aren't the super-weapons on the battlefield, some different thinking has to take place.

First of all, tank production practices were different between the Allies and the Axis. The Axis tended to have big, heavily armored tanks that were usually the king of the battlefield when they were first developed or deployed. But since they were so big and heavy, their production was miniscule compared to the Allies' tank production (later in the war). So the Axis had to work with a numerical inferiority, but they usually had better equipment.

So what this translates to is that on the battlefield, German armor has to have massive infantry support to scout ahead and for close-in protection. However, Allied armor needs infantry support as well, but not quite the extent of German armor. With the Allies' superiority in tank production led the Allies to have a huge overwhelming number of tanks on the battlefield. With this superier number of tanks, the Allies can afford to lose some, but still take out a pesky Panther.

So how does all this translate to CM?? Basically, for the Allies, use tanks enmasse. Especially since the turret traverse speeds of the Sherman series is much faster than about anything the Germans have to offer, a group of Shermans can usually take aim and fire a volley of shots at a opposing German tank or two before the German tank(s) can fire back. Now while commanding the Germans, have infantry probing ahead and finding where the opposing armor is. Also take a fair amount of anti-tank teams such as Panzerschrecks. Any lucky shots of Panzerschrecks or Panzerfausts will save you some trouble later. On the other hand, any lucky shots with bazookas without exposing your tanks will no doubt be to your advantage as the Allies.

I could go on, but others will/can add to this.

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"I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus

[robertpat1]

Just that the allies arte more likly to have tankes, but they on the most part will be mediocur. While the germans will have few, but high qualaty tankes. i.e. a sherman wont survive a battle with a panzer, but 2 shermans might.

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A 2x4 and a kind word work better than just a 2x4

[Guest Scott Clinton]

I think something that folks (esp. the Close Combat vets) will have to get used to is that the panzerfausts, bazookas, ect. are not nearly as accuate as they are used to in Close Combat. Especially when the firing unit is under fire, weary or has poor morale.

I just played a quick game of CC and was suprised how deadly the mauled sqauds where with their panzerfausts at long range, while under fire from 2-3 of my units.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 06-17-2000).]

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However, Allied armor needs infantry support as well, but not quite the extent of German armor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Given the effectiveness of German AT weapons, I don't buy into this statement. It doesn't matter which side you're on... not enough infantry support = no tanks

[Guest grunto]

if i'm not mistaken Fionn mentioned in an infantry tactics article that it is good to keep your infantry spread out enough so it can't be mauled by artillery or enemy infantry charges, but close enough together so that they can all provide supporting fire to each other. that is a tough trick in combat conditions.

in any case i would think that the same thing would apply to tanks - keep them far enough apart so that anticipated artillery won't do great damage, but keep them close enough together that they can all fire on the same target at once.

it is easy to write but difficult to practice.

also stay away from the german infantry if you know where that infantry is.

if you're feeling lucky, sometimes a large tank thrust such as all 6 shermans in vot - loaded to the gills with infantry - can 'break' the german positions and establish a fire base somewhere around 209 (either on 209 or n-ne of there generally).

the 'feel' of the game is that there is a certain satisfaction and loss in both risky and conservative play.

for instance if i do the charge with 6 shermans and infantry, and lose 1/3 the infantry, 1/2 the tanks, and have another 1/3 of the infantry broken, i've established a potent force aside or behind the germans of 3 tanks and 2 infantry squads. combined with the '3.5-platoon' frontal assault, those units usually shred the remaining german positions. so establishing those multiple directions of fire is deadly to your opponent, but such lightning moves can also prove costly if the above casualty estimates are anywhere near the mean for such a gambit.

there's the thrill of kicking ass but the sense of loss that you sacrificed 3 tanks and some ground-pounders (infantry) to do what may have worked just as well with a plodding assault - without the casualties.

on the other hand if you do the plodding, measured assault you have the satisfaction of 'keeping your men safe' but you're missing the dynamic of 'mini-blitzkrieg.'

my best attack in vot was combined-arms with 5 platoons and 6 tanks over the left ami side, just s-se of the farmhouse. they made contact with a single german platoon in the woods on the rideline se of the farmhouse and n-ne of the valley with the heavy building in it - and i swear they took it out in about 2 turns. i lost a company hq and about 4-5 other guys. it was 36 of his lost against 6-10 of mine.

last i knew he had a panther on the hill and i had 5 shermans tucked in 'under the lip' nw of the panther and the 6th was backing into a valley - i also had a full 50 rounds of 105 FO ammo with 49 81mm mortar rounds left and was flanking his 75mm pillbox badly while his other platoons languished under 3 machineguns from the hill 216 as they tried to redeploy from the south to the north. he definitely still has some fight but with 5 shermans waiting just under the lip maybe it's getting dicey for him... over 2 squads also broke through with the 5 tanks. there is infantry ahead of the tanks so they can screen any infantry charge from his reinforcement platoon. the foot infantry is closing the gap between itself and the breakthrough. the rear breakthrough positions are only 100-150 meters east of the lead foot soldier positions and there are no germans in between but woods. yes it's been a good flanking move so far.

anyway the ideal is your entire force in one spot at the same time without any enemy indirect fire raining in on you.

if there's indirect and you clump them too closely, you'll pay.

it's all quite the mental exercise.

my general rule is that if i'm sitting there thinking about a potentially dicey move and i get the thought, 'no guts no glory,' i'm going to make that move.

i'm going to alaska for a week with a laptop. i was telling Steve i would have to design some scenarios:

michael wittmann versus british

metz-trier-saarbrucken

abrams experienced shermans against green panthers

river crossing operation in northern italy, 1945. that's going to be the one with the maxed-out map and two large hills on opposite sides above a town with some stone bridges going over a rushing mountain river which divides the map in two . there should be a hetzer platoon on one hill, with 210mm rocket support.

ok here's a question... how do the rest of you move tanks through 210mm barrages? what sorts of things do you do to avoid being slaughtered by anything bigger than 105? i mean 81mm and 105mm in vot is bad enough but, 120mm? 150-155mm? 203-210mm? 16"-naval guns?

andy

[Sgt.Morgue]

M4s can be nearly invincable , if positon properly. In a VoT match(pbem) i'm playing now my opponent had two 75mm ATs in bunkers , i positioned my two M4(105s) on a back slope in hull down postions , giving the frontal plates a more severe angle to the guns. one took 4 hits on upper hull armor all ricocehed, the other took three , both survired and took out both AT bunkers.

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen:

However, Allied armor needs infantry support as well, but not quite the extent of German armor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Given the effectiveness of German AT weapons, I don't buy into this statement. It doesn't matter which side you're on... not enough infantry support = no tanks

Well, true. But what I was referring to was that since Germany had a lot of Assault Guns and Tanks with slow turret traverse rates, that Allied tanks with faster traverse rates, even given their relatively weak armor, still be able to defend themselves better than German tanks in close combat. Yes they need infantry, but how long can a StuG III survive if a bazooka team is to its side.

And grunto, yes artillery within the 81-105 range isn't too bad, but anything higher, there's trouble far them thar tanks. I'd think I'd keep them moving to try to get them out of the barrage area.

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"I for one, am pretty damn close to Genius"--Ol' Blood & Maximus

[This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 06-17-2000).]

[Guest aka PanzerLeader]

One, only one armor tip for the newbies: don't overestimate Panzers!!!

And don't underestimate Allied tanks!

It is very easy to start thinking that the Panzers are invincible against the rotten Shermans. Then you go out there, place your Stugs carelessly and get killed!

CM maps aren't that big so the Panzers lose one of their advantages, better accuracy at long range.

So, RESPECT the Allied Armor for better results!

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton:

I just played a quick game of CC and was suprised how deadly the mauled sqauds where with their panzerfausts at long range, while under fire from 2-3 of my units.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is b/c CC is so much more realistic of course. But joking aside, I fully agree, the difference in AT weapon usage between CC and CM is huge. In CM, you actually have to think about placing your AT teams, and you have to maneuver, use cover etc.pp. I am amazingly bad at that. In CC2, all you had to do was drive into the range of any German infantry, except for the sniper, and you could kiss your tank goodbye. German Überfaustsyndrom, I guess.

Having said that, using US armour in too close support for the infantry is often deadly. I have seen Schreck kills at 169m and others have seen them at 203m. But the reason for that was clever use by the German player or mistakes by the US player.

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Andreas

[Maastrictian]

Speaking of 'shreks. Its just worth noting that, while it may seem counter intuitive, driving your tanks at right angles to the shrek (or potential shrek site) is the way to go. Since a shrek can penetrate the front armor of a sherman easily, you shouldn't worry about presenting your weaker side armor. And the side to side motion make it *much* harder for the shrek team to hit you.

--Chris

[RobC]

Regardless of nationality, tanks should never be driven near buidlings or woods (within range infantry AT weapons) where infantry may be hidden. Either pre-scout the positions you are about to approach with infantry or approach with massive suppresive fire and don't linger. If you must approach buildings or woods, a good policy is to approach, fire and reverse quickly out of AT weapon range until it can be definitively established that no enemy infantry are present there.

Resist the temptation to bring tanks in close to buildings or woods. Stand off and blast the woods or building first to try and flush out any possible ambushing infantry.

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"Freedom is not a right. It is a privilege bought and paid for with the blood of patriots." Robert A. Heinlein in Starship Troopers

[Wittmann]

Originally posted by Maximus:

Yes they need infantry, but how long can a StuG III survive if a bazooka team is to its side.

StuG III had side skirts fitted to defeat the hollow charge of weapons such as the bazooka.....however I wouldn't hang around to get my ass shot off when they manouvred to a beter position

[Tyro]

In my experience it is best if you have multipule tanks as the allies, to expose them all at once, and give the German tanks with their slow traverse a moment of indecision and make them think just a moment longer about what they need to target, meanwhile your Shermans are banging away. BOOM!!!!!