British HE

[Mark Gallear]

Found two interesting links that give some insight into the use of British HE by tanks with the 6pdr and AT guns. From them I can gleam that HE was used by RA 6 pdrs around the time of Alamein, (presumably Battle test use) but was the practise was stopped until early 1944. (This is my early statement that 6pdr HE was available at Alamein and one of the links gives a side reference to it.) The link says the reason given was belief that HE rounds wore the 6pdr gun barrel rapidly.

After the first use of 6 Churchill IIIs at Alamein, the next batch of Churchills seem to have seen combat in late Feb 1943 - they were Churchill III and Is as CS tanks - to the tankers disgust 6pdr HE was not issued and they were forced to use the Churchill I with a 2pdr in the turret and 3" gun in the hull.

I found another reference to Churchill I been used in Italy, see my early posts as the link lists all types of British tanks used in numbers by month!

(This tank apart from being the wrong 3d model has only one gun barrel in the icons please correct!)

Featherstone who was in the RTR in Tunisia and Italy states there was no 6pdr HE round and gives an account of battle in which an 88mm is knocked out with AP rounds. From this it seems tanks with the 6pdr never got the HE round. By 1944 they were been replaced with marks with the 75mm anyway.

Donald Featherstone - Tank Battles In Miniture Books 1 and 4.

http://www.geocities.com/vqpvqp/nih/Articles/1-2.html

http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/otherfp.htm#Anti-aircraft

So, Mike was right it was doctrinal after all !

(You may like to grab my grog icon bar for CMAK from Mod corner. The Desert Rats badge is the unhistoric late period one used because as it looked more pleasing and so fits in well with the current version of CMAK :eek: .)

[ December 21, 2003, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

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Interesting post - and thanks for the icons Mark

[Mark Gallear]

Just played Tally-Ho and noticed another little point - British Shermans are fitted out with .50 cal AA MGs. (Some were supplied with .30 cals). Although they were supplied with them – the British Army believed that a tank commander should command and not fire a MG from an exposed position. They were not usually fitted but were given to attached infantry formations in halftracks and it is common to see photos of halftracks with .50 cal Mgs as well as the supplied .30 cal.

Never seen an AA Mg on a Firefly, as the turret is British made and supplied. Ok, on some occasions they were fitted for AA defence and have read a Battle report of a tank commander getting so mad at his .30 cal(early Sherman period) cooking off above his head he dumped it overboard as soon as it was safe to do so. (This was in a book to make the point that British tank crews didn't like them.)

I can only recall seeing photos of Specialist Sherman used for mine clearing fitted with the .50 cal. (Presumably to shoot at the mines). This point goes for commonwealth tank crews as well.

British doctrine was to use AA Tanks, which are missing from the game – big hint you have the 3D model of hull and turret already.

I recall Battlefront telling us in CMBO that tank commanders did not fire AA MGs so they were not represented. Why the change of heart?

Please fix or something!

Looking forward to the grav sleds in CM3 rebuild - does this mean Battlefront are going fantasy or SCi-Fi next outing ?

[Redwolf]

This is just a guess, but most historical accounts of British Shermans I come across are from the ETO.

We are playing North Africa and Italy here.

That means the Luftwaffe was comparably stronger and modifications in British Sherman hardware or doctrine might not have been implemented by that time or in that theatre.

[Mark Gallear]

This is pretty educated guess on this point of British Army doctrine - ok you do see photos of some Alamein period Shermans with the .30 cal MG fitted but not very many after that and German airpower rapidly diminishes as well.

You will not see any AA MGs fitted to British made tanks in the early period when German airpower is very strong. In contrast armoured cars and scouts car are well kitted out with them. Even the Uni Carrier could carry a Bren on an AA mount.

I am almost 100% certain you will not see a Firefly fitted out with a .50 cal because they did not come with one so an experienced unit could not fit it!

See the old Osprey book on "The Sherman in British Service" - for a discussion of this point and the battle account of a tank commander dumping his .30 cal. (Also got Squadron organization and mentions use of the Sherman 105mm as a CS tank in Italy.)

The point I made about the half-tracks bristling with US MGs is from a regimental history, which describes this process, I found it after somebody queried why photos showed them with more MGs than was supplied. (exactly how many units did this I don't know.)

(The scenario I played was right at the end of the war.)

[ December 21, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[flamingknives]

Crusader AA should be in there. They're as common, if not more so, than CS tanks in a tank regiment TO&E.