QB map/troops import: here's one idea.

[Tarkus]

This is the follow up response to MD inquirery about an idea for a more complex and IMO more interesting way for using the import troops feature within the QB engine. I am staring a new thread for fear of hijacking the other and to bring this to the attention of people who might want to try it out.

I also paste here my first pitch for this system so you see the point of the post:

Originally posted by myself:

Try a QB on a large map with lots of flags on most key features, with the express intention of playing, say, a 5 battles serie with the import map/troops feature and an opponent of roughly your level of experience. I think you will agree with me that the way you approach such a program tends to be a bit different and encompass a larger line of thinking. While not being "campaign" per see, it really enlarge the scope with those details that are missing in a single QB, like counter-attacks, establishing defensive positions, protecting reinforcement routes, etc, but without the limitations of a CM operation. You can buy additionnal units at the beginning of a new battle, and cleverly designed setup zone can add some further interest, along with extra rules you may add. We, for an example, use the "landmark" tool within the editor to add some conditional lines that limits the opponent available area for reinforcement setup once crossed.

I am in one such a setup these days, and I assure you, it really add something. Big CM fun.

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Do you have a codified list of how you redraw start lines between the battles?

Well the idea is under test right now, and is quite simple, but let me explain it fully for the sake of accuracy.

There are two considerations to bear in mind with this system. First, the way the import feature is made, you cannot edit anything on the map in following battles. That is why clever planning is called for...

Second, the rules I explain below are based on one thing no all CM players enjoy: both players agree on certain rules and restrictions, and both players MUST follow them. Failure to do so remove any remote interest in this idea. So it is best played with people enjoying enough mutual confidence to respect the rules. But the reward is a better CM experience for both as well. That, to me, means a little more realistic.

So it goes like this:

1.- A map is picked.

The larger the better. We went CMBB for ours, and the map is as big as the editor allows. About 9 square KM IIRC. The map, expertly designed by Breizhstorm, the guy I am testing this stuff with, is densely wooded with many roads, inspired by a Western European landscape. It is edited with the following considerations:

Flags: 20 larges and 20 smalls, i.e. as many as permitted within the editor. The placement of them is made on most key features: bridges, high grounds, road net and hubs, and in depth. The idea behind the placement is to encourage the full occupation of the map as the main goal for each side. Destroying ennemy forces will help, of course, but depth flags means that you have to force your way through certain area to enable later (by that I mean in following battles) offensive operation toward farther flags. It also means that you must protect your gains, and that a lost battle on flag points does not mean you will loose the overall score if by better placement you can surprise you opponent in later battles by careful planning, conservation of forces and the like.

Deployement zone: Three zones of the same color are drawn for each side, named zone 1, zone 2 and bonus zone. Zone one is the only available zone for battle #1 and is placed on opposite corners of the map (Axis: North-Western, Allies South-Eastern). Zone 2 is smaller and on the same side/edge, but on the opposite corner. Bonus zone is a stripe of about 20x1000 meters in the middle of the map, not allowed for deployement except in certain case (see below). The point in having the setup zone near the edge of the map is to avoid what we sometimes see in operation: sudden appearance of powerful units out of nowhere. One must bring fresh troops forward, and lines behind the immediate frontline can be under observation, which in turn can call for interdiction and/or harassing artillery fire.

Landmarks: A line marked with "X" is marked on the map through the landmarking tool within the editor. It roughly follows the area of zone 1, but about two times larger.

Here's a screenie for all this:

2.- Player 1 launch a QB with this map. Our own parameters were a 5000pts ME, combined arms. I think it is best to start with a meeting for equal points and initial forward movements on the map.

3.- Game end. The score is looked at, BUT NOT THE MAP. This is crucial (hence the confidence stuff), since every attempt to sneak some forces on the ennemy's flank and keeping reserves for following battles is utterly pointless if your opponent can see them between battle. There is no workaround for this AFAIK.

This is where the landmark line come to play. You can use it for a variety of rules. Ours is that if the ennemy succeed at occupying a flag within my side "X" zone, all my reinforcments in battle 2 must be deployed in zone 2, and the ennemy is granted the permission to deploy in his side's bonus zone.

Variation on this could be that if the ennemy succeed in occupying this zone (or X number of flags), then I would be forced on defensive and the next QB would be set-up as a probe/attack/assault against me. There are other possibilities, but you get the picture. Since the condition lines are marked in the editor with the landmark tool, you can mark as many line as you want using various letters and symbols, although the more suff you add, the more visually clogged it becomes, and at one point you can only see and read these line from view #9...

As a note for newer players, all landmark can be toggled off with shift-L.

4.- Next battle is launched within the QB engine. Unit purchase are made according to QB #1 results and rules. All units from previous battles appears on the right hand screen @ a cost of zero points. You will also see "crews" of knocked out vehicles. One rule we have is that all crews must be removed from the purchase screen. Map is loaded.

If you haven't tried yet to import troops on a QB map, you ought to know that imported troops will appear at the exact same spot you left them on the previous battle, with the same amount of casualties (including vehicles), but fully resupplied with ammo. Crews and wrecks are still on the map if you haven't removed them in the purchase phase.

Another important point: all units that aren't in a setup zone appears with a neutral base that isn't padlocked. What this means (again for newer player) is that you can deploy these units in ANY setup zone, but you cannot move them anywhere in a non-setup zone.

Do you save the end game file and use it as the start to the next battle, allowing purchases of new units?

AFAIK, the only file that allows troop importing is the final autosave, that is, the file you get when you click "Back to main menu" on the final score screen. You can generate this file at will by saving the last turn and loading it when needed.

* * *

I am testing this thing out as I write, so most probably there might be some shortcomings I don't see. If you come up with something else, by all mean share with us, I'll be glad to try it out.

All I can say for now is this: This idea does not change many things in the way CM works or feels, but there are certain areas in the playing process where I noticed a subtle and, IMHO, most interesting change.

There is much fuss about CM "scope" and such. My opinion is that the importing troops feature enlarge the scope of the game somewhat, and in the best possible way at that. You have to think ahead because your opponent wil try to exploit your weaknesses, recon becomes a really important part of the game, and defensive positions must be carefully laid out to sustain later pressure from the ennemy, to name but a few.

It isn't perfect, of course, but I found it is a most interesting way to push the CM engine a little further. Plus, since it was discussed recently in the other post, I believe it can serve as an interesting, tryable, clear basis for design work as to what CMx2 could offer.

There you go. I hope this looong expose is somewhat clear. Feel free to ask if anything is unclear.

My good friend Breizhstorm deserve a big kudo for this. Actually, the idea evolved from our discussions and the condition line and the above map (one of the best I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot) are results of his most excellent work and patience.

Enjoy !

[ January 10, 2005, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Tarkus, do you mind if I email you? I had considered doing something similar, but your ideas are more advanced than mine. I do, however, have a suggestion for you...

[Tarkus]

I certainly don't mind. All ideas about this are most welcome.

Cheers

[Dook]

Tarkus,

If you don't look at the final map, how do you know who really controls all the flags in order to determine whether to impose new conditions for the next game?

[Tarkus]

Dook,

There is no need to look at the map to know at least about the score. As for the holding of a flag within the rules, the good faith of your opponent OR different sets of rules, like having ten or more units within opponent "X" zone, will have to do,

There are some cross check possibilities that I can think of from the top of my head.

- I for one will want to look at the final map of each QB after the whole set is over, just like a regular QB. I'll be able then to verify the claim of my opponent and learn about how he went about his business and vice versa.

- Refering the matter to a third person. In the example above, there isn't much flag in the "X" zone, and since these are obvious approaches and exits from my primary setup zone, I really think I'll be aware of the presence of ennemy forces around... But refering the matter to a referee of some sort can be useful if you infiltrate units your opponent's zone.

Ah, and lastly, the rules can be changed at every QB, for example battle one can be set on "X number of enemy units behind the line", battle two on "at least two flags in ennemy's hands", etc. And even if no rules are activated at all during the whole QB set, importating units is really cool.

Of course, all this is not very pratical but one must realize the whole system is based on trust. Sure you can bypass it, but getting caught ain't good for keeping opponents. Beside, this sort of project I would rather keep for your closest CM friends. (In other words, those with which you share enough crushing victories and humiliating defeats to care much about ego).

HTH

[junk2drive]

Have you figured out a way against the AI?

[Tarkus]

Haven't tried to be honest. I tend to play less against AI these days.

Since you can always import your troops within QBs one after the other, I suppose there is something to be tried to enhance AI behavior with a more elaborate map and flag placement, but then that would be a question for our fellows scenario designer that know how to best channel AI good vibes.

Apart from that, I don't see. Is that what you meant ?

[junk2drive]

Yes

I have never really had much experience with QBs. I could not purchase units if I didn't have a clue as to how they work. A couple of tries vs AI, the AI did not do well.

[Brent Pollock]

Sounds groovy - keep us informed. I'm starting to think this is the only method to use for the Pegasus Bridge HASL conversion, if only because there are so many entrance/set up zones and it requires consecutive night battles, something the Op enginecan't handle.

[Tarkus]

The game is going on and it is every bit up to our expectations. We are still in the first battle, but we both agree that thinking ahead for later battles/reinforcements really spice things up, but it also feed our think tank big time, so I throw in some more ideas since CMx2 is in the boiler. If any of this can help and inspire new ideas and further discussion about what should or should not be, all the better.

So I'm taking some stuff from the bones thread and keeping this thread up for people to suggest ideas along these line.

Originally posted by Other Means:

If state is going to be passed from one battle to the next then hopefully there will be a troop import/export tool. That will help a great deal with any community developed meta campaign.

I was discussing this very topic with some people these days. Even without considering the experience gathering process, if only to keep names, casualties and kills along various battles, this would yield some great possibilities, which in turn could be seen as some sort of "on the fly" operation/campaign tool.

Another related topic has to do with what kind of unit might be available for purchase and part the game format. I believe this question was raised recently.

For example, as it is now, starting a QB means that you choose between meeting, probe, attack and assault, which in turn imply how points are distributed between players and unit categories. (i.e. no fortification units in a meeting).

Yet with the troops import feature,you can now simulate a battle that rages for days on the same spot by playing its multiple engagements. That means that even though you generally are on the offense on the larger intent of winning the QB serie, yet at some point/place in the game, you may decide to act rather defensively ("right flank dig in, prepare for defensive battle, shifting some ressources to my left flank for assault on village X"). As it is now, either your are wholly defensive (purchase points wise), or you are not.

What would be great is to imagine a way to enable people to buy digging points and second-line material that IMO would have their place in this longer, deeper battle. If players could choose by mutual consent how much time separate one QB to the next (from "immediatly" to "X minutes" to "Y days"), this could have effects on certain aspects of the material available to the players. For example, if the players decide by mutual consent that the second battle of a QB import serie occurs 24 hours after the first one, that could "unlock" some equipment that simply would not be available immediately after the first battle. Example of this could be "digging points". One would import troops, and instead of spending his point assests solely in troops (assuming the second QB is still set on ME), he could spend it in digging points, or field telephone wiring, or mines, or forward area supply dump, etc.

All this certainly sounds complicated, but it is rather my poor syntax that is to blame, since it really all boils down to this: the guy who lauches the first QB have two additionnal options:

- First, a check box "QB serie" that, if checked, would toggle on a data field ("how many battles?"). This would lock the final map screen of the first four (keeping them along the fifth for a full review of the evolution of the serie in the last battle with some per-battle stats). And from there, a whole new purchase configuration along the above lines could be devised.

- Then, upon launching the next battle of the serie, a data field or drop down or whatever would allow player to determine how long this battle occurs after the preceding one, with impact on units available and supply of forward troops ("immediately" would results in forward troops NOT being resupplied with ammo, for example.)

I don't know if any of this make sense to you, but I really feel there is a simple way to enhance the QB engine.

Cheers