best suppressing fire option

[terrakota]

hi,

I'm a little confused how to use fire support better,

ie.

i need to move a platoon from point A throw open field to point B i need suppresing fire with maxin's, but when i move my platoon the enemy starts to shoot my guys so they pinned,etc

my support weapons(maxins mg) dont open fire because no visual contact of enemy just sound contact (and i only see the tracers comming from the woods), what shoul i do?

assign then a covering arc? use target/area? if i use target area they only shot at that spot and they dont cover a wider area, or leave then alone to do they job while the enemy shows up?(maybe my whole platton already dead)

thanks for any advice what's the best way to provide covering fire using MG's.

[Lars]

Use area fire. It sprays about a bit. Target several Maxims around the general area and wait a turn to give it time to work. Let them keep firing when you give the squad orders to move to keep heads down.

[Gpig]

If you've got the time, also use a couple of squads to throw some supressing fire, while the 3rd squads ADVANCES across the field.

Then when 3rd sqd reaches cover, it and 1st sqd can supress the enemy tree line while the HQ and 2nd sqd cross the field. Rinse and repeat

And like Lars said, give your Maxim's some time to supress the tree line. But if you have not ID'd the enemy positions, there will ALWAYS be some fire coming back outta those woods. Be prepared to lose some men.

Gpig

[MikeyD]

There's the gamey sacrificial victim tactic.

If you're being supressed by an unseen mg you could split a squad, pick the team with the least firepower, and advance that sacrificial team out in the direction of the unseen mg. With some luck they'll spot the offending mg before they die, and the game's borg spotting 'feature' will let the rest of your force then fire on the now visible mg.

An alternate is to use those 300mm(?) incendiary nebelwerfer rockets! One rocket will surpess anything that's 100m in any direction. The downside is that they take about 15 minutes to fire and are just as liable to fall on your own men as theirs

[ April 22, 2005, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[imported_no_one]

To my knowledge,a MMG/HMG that is given an area-target order will have it's maximum firepower,for that particualr spot,cut in half,but it will have an area of effect of around 50m.I think it is more of an oval shape than a circle,but you get the idea.

Have some of your squads advance & hide,and have some assualt & hide.The ones that advance will have shorter waypoint lengths,and the assualters(who should also be of higher experience--if possible)will have longer waypoints--though they will be used less often so that they may rest.All of them should stop moving and hide at some point before the turn ends,and keep them in cover.Yes,brush,wheat,steppe,is cover.It wont' stop the bullets from getting to you,but it makes it so that they can't see you.A plus one or two to stealth,command,and morale are very important for the units that are making the big push.Though not all are required.

Move multiple targets at once,and have them spread out.This makes it more difficult for the defender to engage all of them,and keeps them from firing for very long at any one single squad.Not to mention the bonus of less effective enemy arty.Less stuff to hit.

In the case of advancing multiple squads all at the same time,and nice and spread-out.If you notice that some of them aren't taking any fire.You can try giving maybe a 100m cover arc and issue a move to contact & hide command.This way,they only stop when they recieve some sort of fire,and they will hide also.This allows you to move troops without them getting tired out,but without the worry that comes with "move" or "run" or something.

Don't go the gamey route.It will ruin it for someone.Hopefully only the person doing the gamey stuff,but unfortunately that is rarely the case.

I am curious as to why you don't have any on-map mortars,or arty,or direct fire HE,etc....?A smoke screen would have made the whole thing alot more simplistic.

[YankeeDog]

Read JasonC's posts on attacking over open groud; there's one right now in the Tips & Tricks forum that covers a lot of the concepts you need.

Briefly, unless the enemy locations are pretty obvious (for example, if the patch of woods where the sound contacts are is really small, so you pretty much know where they are), MG area fire usually won't suppress much unless the enemy troops are of really low quality, or you've got ALOT of it. This is especially true if the enemy is in good cover (such as woods).

The good news is, if the enemy is still so far away that all you're getting is sound contacts, this also means that their outgoing fire isn't all that deadly.

So keep your men moving forward with short (25-75m) bounds, depending on experience & incoming fire volume) advance orders. Give 'em time between movement 'hops' to rest and recover morale.

Eventually, they'll get close enough to the MGs to see 'em. Sure, you'll lost a few men, but not many.

Then you can open up with your MGs & support elements.

Big danger w/ all of this is that your opponent has some good-sized arty, and he'll drop it on the heads of your slow-moving guys out in the field. . .

[terrakota]

thanks for the great tips

I'm still trying the demo so I only have mortars and 1 arty, but the problem is that i cant use the mortars because the woods where the enemy is firing is out of range to my mortars or at least i cant shot with the mortars .

[terrakota]

after trying some of your tips i still have some problems and i'm a little confused:

i cant move a single unit because there's an enemy hidden in the woods and when this lone unit shoots my units all my units go to ground and i mean 3 platoons and some enter in panic , i moved the squads and all where suppresed by a single enemy unit, i try to supprise this single unit back with mortar, MG's, and nothing works he keeps shoting and i cant move a single unit, i think I'm missing something here . i suppres with the target option clicking on ground from hes shooting

thanks for any help

[PiggDogg]

The best thing to do is learn how infantry can cross open ground under fire.

By far the best place to learn about all things CM is the Anthology Of Useful Posts.

This is from the "Anthology" and is more directly on point. Infantry Advance. Unfortunately, the pictures are gone.

As another hint, on any subject, read everything by JasonC on CM tactics or history. In all cases, you will learn a lot.

It is a lot of reading, but, in order to get better in CM, it is up to you to put in the time required for reading, learning, and practicing.

Cheers, Richard

[ April 22, 2005, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: PiggDogg ]

[JasonC]

Use the "advance" command, not move. That is the biggest single thing. It dramatically lowers "cover panic" when shot at while moving.

Keep your units 30 meters apart. Otherwise fire that hits one will suppress others around it.

Move by short bounds, 50m or so, if under fire. Some units move while others are on their command delays and vice versa. (e.g. pad some of the orders with pauses to start the following minute).

If you think the enemy position is within 200m or so, have everyone stay "heads up", to spot them more rapidly. At longer distances, add a "hide" command to the end of your movement orders.

Aim to end these short bounds in any available cover. Shellholes, rocky, wheat - even steppe, marginally better than open ground. If there is none in the direction you are going, or close enough, or each bit is already taken by somebody else, then aim to reach a farther piece in 2-3 bounds rather than one.

It is important that your units trade off who goes first, who is closest, who is moving, who is spotted, who is more exposed. The times when a unit isn't "picked on" compared to the others around it, are the times it rallies best.

If a unit is being fired on - red targeting line - and the morale state is anything worse than "alerted", then only continue moving a short distance to reach nearby cover. If there isn't any, halt. Completely stationary, even in the open. Let other units move closer.

Any unit the develops a "sideway sneak" order is in a state called "cover panic". They are trying to get out of the open, and stuck because that isn't trivial. If they are 20m from cover you can let them keep crawling. Otherwise, halt them. Order them to hide. If they can see enemy - full ID - shoot back instead.

Do not waste ammo firing in the general direction of sound contacts. Wait until someone is close enough for a full ID. Getting shot at in the open on the approach is not something to panic over. It is not something you are supposed to be avoiding somehow. You are not supposed to be able to silence any enemy that shoots at you, even at long range.

You just take the pain. Rally is what lets infantry advance in such situations, ongoing increases in morale state every turn, especially from the units not currently being shot as so much. The defender doesn't have the ammo to kill you at 500m with a few stealthy shooters. He doesn't have the ammo to even hurt you, if you are in cover half the time or more.

Long range fire only pins. You rally, and a few minutes later the effect is gone. You lose a couple rifles and a couple of minutes. The enemy uses up half his ammo. Not much to show for it. Just don't stop, and don't rush, and don't throw away your own ammo.

You will get closer in 10 to 15 minutes. The typically average rate of achieved advance in these situations can be as little as 25 meters per minute. Occasional units make 50 meters a minute, but most don't on average. It is still enough to cross the entire range envelope, from distant fire you barely notice to full ID range, in 15 minutes or less.

When you get close, you want full ammo, and the men mostly together. Not a strung out bunch with a few leading guys racing forward and tired, most stuck farther back, and a few running away. That just gets the closest guys outshot, right in front of the main enemy position. Bring everyone along. When the men are hurting, don't speed up, slow down.

See, part of the defender's problem is he can't keep pinning fire forever. If you slow down when it gets bad, you are giving yourself more time to rally, and keeping the range long. You also make the defense use a lot more ammo, or force him to slack off the fire (with covered arcs e.g.). At the ranges where it hurts least.

Once you do get close enough to see the enemy, full IDs rather than sound, stop the effort to move all the time and blow the hell out of him, instead. Pulling triggers is the best way to protect your men, much more important than frantic moving. But only after you know where to send that fire, and you are close enough for it to really break him, rather than just muss his hair.

The formula in short is patient and methodical use of "advance", until full IDs. Then fire like mad, advancing more only when the enemy is suppressed. Try it. It takes micromanagement, using + to step through every unit every turn and asking only what they can realistically do. But it works.

[terrakota]

thanks for all the advice