GoofyStance Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 While playing a QB set in North Africa in the fall(?) of 1942, I panned around behind one of the Pzkw IV F2's in the scenario. On the rear of the turret was a white emblem that looked like a lion. I did a Google search, but could not come up with any seemingly relevant hits for the origin of this emblem. I suspect that, given the German penchant for African-related mythology in past times (i.e., Goethe's "Mignon"), the lion emblem has ancient roots - perhaps the Lion of Babylon? Can anyone shed light on the choice of this emblem on the Pzkw IV? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces_and_8's Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Supposedly the Germans shot the face off the Lion of Babylon, least that's what the tour guide told us. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sokal Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by Aces_and_8's: Supposedly the Germans shot the face off the Lion of Babylon, least that's what the tour guide told us. There are lions on the Ishtar Gate of Babylon (or Nineveh maybe?). I think there was a reconstruction of the gate in Berlin before WWII. Perhaps your tour guide meant to say the Germans had reconstructed the Lion Gate rather than blown the face off the lion (which sounds like the story of the French and the Great Sphinx at Giza). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces_and_8's Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by Sokal: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aces_and_8's: Supposedly the Germans shot the face off the Lion of Babylon, least that's what the tour guide told us. There are lions on the Ishtar Gate of Babylon (or Nineveh maybe?). I think there was a reconstruction of the gate in Berlin before WWII. Perhaps your tour guide meant to say the Germans had reconstructed the Lion Gate rather than blown the face off the lion (which sounds like the story of the French and the Great Sphinx at Giza). </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 When did German troops ever make it to Babylon, Nineveh, or any other Iraqi sites? I know the Turks were there in WW I, and they had German advisors. Was that it? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridericus Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 some german soldiers, parts of Sonderverband 288, were in Iraq in wwii. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces_and_8's Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: When did German troops ever make it to Babylon, Nineveh, or any other Iraqi sites? I know the Turks were there in WW I, and they had German advisors. Was that it? Michael I wanna say WWI sounds awfully familiar, but dont quote me on that, I was asleep on my feet during most of the tour 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 It is a Bison. The symbol of Pz.Rgt. 7 of the 10. Panzer-Division [ February 09, 2004, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Fernando ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by Fernando: It is a Bison. The symbol of Pz.Rgt. 7 of the 10. Panzer-Division Now that makes sense. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Originally posted by fridericus: some german soldiers, parts of Sonderverband 288, were in Iraq in wwii. Were those the Brandenbergers? Please expand on this if you will. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoofyStance Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fernando: It is a Bison. The symbol of Pz.Rgt. 7 of the 10. Panzer-Division Now that makes sense. Michael </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Sokal: I think there was a reconstruction of the gate in Berlin before WWII. Perhaps your tour guide meant to say the Germans had reconstructed the Lion Gate rather than blown the face off the lion (which sounds like the story of the French and the Great Sphinx at Giza). I think it is the original? Probably nicked, err, preserved, by German archaeologists pre-WW I. Here is an article about it. It is very impressive, if you ever get to Berlin, go and see it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnO Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 On June 15th of 1941, British under General Wavell launched Operation Battleaxe and again fighting took place in Cyrenaica. At Halfaya Pass, which has been converted to defensive strongpoint, Hauptmann Wilhelm Bach and his group held his position, while Italian Division Trento held area Sollum-Capuzzo-Bardia under the command of 15th Panzer Division. Johannes Kümmel and 8th Panzer Regiment with some 80 tanks were in reserve between Bardia and Capuzzo. British moved towards Capuzzo and Sollum, while attacking Bardia with 50 tanks from 7th Armored Division. The attack was temporarily halted by a single 88mm gun, which destroyed three leading enemy tanks. The rest of British tanks halted their attack to regroup and attack again under cover of smoke. This delay allowed the 8th Panzer Regiment to reach the area of Capuzzo and attack the enemy with the 1st Panzer Battalion including Kümmel's company with two short-barrel Panzerkampfwagen IV tanks. They soon knocked-out one British Matilda II and reinforced by company's Panzerkampfwagen III tanks continued to fire at the enemy armor. Fierce tank battle resulted and Johannes Kümmel found himself in the center of it all. During the battle, panzer commanded by Oberleutnant Peters was hit and he called Kümmel to ask for covering fire, while leaving their panzer. Johannes Kümmel soon found himself firing at two enemy tanks, which kept firing to finish off Peters' panzer. He soon knocked them out and regrouped his company to attack British anti-tank positions. German panzer destroyed the enemy positions and the battle soon involved the entire 8th Panzer Regiment. Then, another group of 20 British Matilda IIs were spotted on the flank and regiment's commander Hans Cramer ordered Johannes Kümmel to attack the enemy and protect the flank. With half of his company including two Panzerkampfwagen IV tanks, Kümmel soon knocked out eight enemy tanks, putting an end to the British attack. British advance was halted but both sides suffered heavy losses. Following the action, on June 18th, Kümmel received his nickname - Der Löwe von Capuzzo (The Lion of Capuzzo) and his tank was decorated with the "roaring lion" by his fellow soldiers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoofyStance Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Fernando: It is a Bison. The symbol of Pz.Rgt. 7 of the 10. Panzer-Division After a couple dozen QB attempts, I found the Pzkw IV F2 with that white emblem, and after more careful study, I still think it's a male African lion. I haven't figured out how to post a screen shot, but you can probably find the emblem if you're so inclined. For comparison purposes, here's an excellent profile shot of the American bison (a close relative of the wisent, the European bison which the Germans probably would have used as the model for that emblem; the American bison looks very similar, and the picture is the best I've found): http://www.northrup.org/photos/crap/Animals/nl-65.htm You can see that the tail is much shorter on the bison than on the emblem, and that the "hump" on the bison is further back, over the shoulders. Here's a picture of a male African lion: http://www.northrup.org/photos/crap/Animals/nl-65.htm Not a very good profile shot, but you can see where the tail is proportionately similar to that of the emblem, and the "hump" (the mane) is closer to the head. Can someone from the BFC design crew confirm the identity of this emblem and its origin, please? Thanks! *EDIT* Whoops - I posted the lion link twice. Here's the link for the American bison: http://www.overlandbuffalo.com/bison_bulls/lot121_lg_2.shtml Sorry ... [ February 09, 2004, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: GoofyStance ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by GoofyStance: Can someone from the BFC design crew confirm the identity of this emblem and its origin, please? Thanks! LOL. I think you'll find your wish has already been granted. This site has this pic for Pz.Regt 7: (though I think the right edge has been cropped) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoofyStance Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by JonS: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GoofyStance: Can someone from the BFC design crew confirm the identity of this emblem and its origin, please? Thanks! LOL. I think you'll find your wish has already been granted. This site has this pic for Pz.Regt 7: (though I think the right edge has been cropped) </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Please, believe me. It is a Bison. I know it because I was the guy who drew it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces_and_8's Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Fernando: Please, believe me. It is a Bison. I know it because I was the guy who drew it Looks like a Bison to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 I'm willing to take Fernando's word on it. He's never lied to us before, has he? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoofyStance Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Fernando: Please, believe me. It is a Bison. I know it because I was the guy who drew it Fernando, I do believe you - and my apologies [NEWBIE ALERT], I wasn't aware of your exalted status as a member of the BFC design crew But in my defense, earlier I showed the screen shot of the 7. Pz Regt. Pzkw IV F2 to a mammalian biologist friend of mine, and his first comment was: "Oh, a male African lion." Upon being told it was actually a bison, he leaned closer, adjusted his glasses, and said "Well, the dorsal mass there [pointing to hump] is in the wrong place. It should be in the thoracic region of the spine, not the cervical region. Then the distal portion of the spinal column is much too elongated. It should be truncated." In other words, the hump is too far forward, and the tail is too long [begin BrownNoseMode] Not to detract from an excellent game with an astounding level of detail, though. Personally, I love it! [end BrownNoseMode] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 The "animal", whatever it is,is just a copy of the original symbol of Pz.Rgmt. 7. Any complain about what the true nature of the depicted animal was or how accurately it had been drawn at the time should be directed to the German Ministry of Defence (old Ministry of Attack), Berlin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoofyStance Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Fernando: The "animal", whatever it is,is just a copy of the original symbol of Pz.Rgmt. 7. Any complain about what the true nature of the depicted animal was or how accurately it had been drawn at the time should be directed to the German Ministry of Defence (old Ministry of Attack), Berlin Understood. Now, where did I put those air mail postage stamps ... Kingfish - nice shot of a Guild Navigator 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces_and_8's Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Originally posted by Kingfish: "Spice for sale, Spice for sale, Come get your spice quick while it lasts...The young Atreides is about to screw it up for everyone" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abteilung Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I really enjoyed seeing the playing card symbol (clubs) and the 8 on the Pz.IV.F2. Having read the old Bruce Culver "Panzer Colors" series which do not describe the use of these playing card symbols other than a vagues reference; I found myself wondering about them after seeing it on the panzers in CMAK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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