Ammo Loads

[andhen2003]

I know quite a bit about WW2 but certainly don't qualify as a grog. One thing I've been wondering about is why it seems German infantry ammo loads seem to be much lower than their Allied counterparts. I haven't been very scientific about this, so I may just be incorrect. I primarily play using Panzergrenadiers for the Germans. Does this have anything to do with attacking using a combined arms Blitzkreig mentality (e.g. since your tanks, air support, and arty have pummeled the opponent the infantry don't need as much ammo)? Was it a resource issue? This also seems to hold true for German 80mm vs. British 3" mortars -- the Brits have huge ammo loads vs. the Germans. I have a hard time conserving ammo appropriately using German troops -- I'll have a battle go well and then run out of ammo and have the tide turn against me. Any suggestions? Any general useful information about ammo loads and the philosophies of the different armies that guided how much ammo each squad carried?

[Sergei]

Ammo points are connected to weapons ROF. Lots of SMG's, ammo spent quicker - lots of bolt action rifles, ammo lasts longer.

[andhen2003]

oh, so that's not the actual ammo load that's being represented? does it have to do then with the Panzergrenadier squads having a mix of rifles, LMGs and SMGs as opposed to straight rifles? This doesn't explain the difference in mortar team loads, however

[flamingknives]

The Brit 3" mortar was usually assigned a tracked carrier, whereas the 81mm was more usually manpacked, and the ammo load reflects this. Of course, the 3" costs more - more than twice as much as the 81mm - and is more susceptable to crew casualties.

[Michael Emrys]

That's right. In CM, an ammo point represents a "burst" of fire, not a certain number of cartridges. Remember, most German squads also have the MG 38/42, which ate up ammo at a phenomenal rate.

As for the 3" mortar, IIRC the reason it has a lot of ammo is some confusion over the fact that normally in practice it was assigned a Universal Carrier that could haul a lot more mortar bombs than just the crew on foot. In the game, the Carrier is absent but the load remains the same. Might get fixed in the patch.

Michael

[Kingfish]

A possible solution would be to make the Brit 3" mortar team immobile once they disembark from their prime mover, but still retain the capability to embark if required.

[andhen2003]

Thanks. I had a feeling I was asking a dumb question, but y'all were kind to answer. Let me ask a different question, maybe to get this on a more interesting track...why did the Germans mix LMGs and SMGs into their squads, as opposed to having a generic rifle squad or SMG squad as the Brits seemed to do? The SMG men were probably useless unless a battle closed to short quarters. Seems more sensible organizationally to have the SMGs in squads that could be sent in for close combat. I guess the Americans also tended to mix SMGs in with rifle squads? I don't play the Americans much but from the movies and images I've seen, you tend to see SMGs mixed in with the rifles. What's the advantage of a mixed squad?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by andhen2003:

The SMG men were probably useless unless a battle closed to short quarters. Seems more sensible organizationally to have the SMGs in squads that could be sent in for close combat.

I think the SMG-heavy squads were in fact introduced during or after the intense urban fighting in Stalingrad. But like everybody else when the Reich began to collapse, were probably thrown in wherever warm bodies were needed.

I guess the Americans also tended to mix SMGs in with rifle squads?

So did pretty much everybody else most of the time. A standard organization was one MG, one SMG, and the rest carried rifles. The SMG was usually carried by the NCO in charge of the squad. His job was not so much to shoot (unless the enemy was close enough for his gun to be effective), as to control the squad.

What's the advantage of a mixed squad?

The rifles and MG give you effective firepower at range. The rifles out to about 200 meters (a highly variable figure), the MG out to about 500 or so. The SMG gives you a lot of firepower out to about 50 meters. (I am being deliberately conservative on these range figures.) So, a mix of weapons allows some flexibility in the squad. You are a bit less likely to come up against a situation where you won't be effective because of weapons' limitations.

It might be instructive to examine the way a present day squad or fireteam is armed by comparison.

Michael

[Sergei]

SMG is a more suitable weapon for a squad leader than a rifle is, because it is easier to carry while crawling along the line checking the situation. And since he is more busy with leading the men and keeping in contact with the platoon leader, he wouldn't have as much time to fire at distant targets, anyway.

The basis of the squad's firepower was the LMG. One or two rifles less in the squad didn't matter, what did matter was the LMG and that it had plenty of ammo (so the riflemen were more or less ammo carriers for the main weapon).

And I suppose most of the armies preferred a "one squad fits all situations" type of arrangement. For assaults SMG fighters could be put to assault teams to spearhead the attack, but otherwise the same squads had to encounter different kinds of situations - long- and close-range fighting, fighting infantry as well as tanks, and so on.

[flamingknives]

Commonwealth units, particularly British units late war, tended to issue SMGs when they were needed - Stens being carried in a battalion pool. IIRC.

[andhen2003]

Ah, that makes sense, the NCO had the SMG. I wasn't thinking about the officer's role in the squad, but that really makes sense. It also makes sense that the all-SMG squads appeared after Stalingrad and the urban bloodbaths in Russia. Thanks for the info. I always find the forums here to be a fascinating read, even when I start them silly questions. Shows how little I really knew about WWII tactics even though I know the history well.

[Michael Emrys]

Another application of the all-SMG squad was the tank riders of the Red Army (sound like they should be something out of a comix, don't they? )

They were to ride the tanks (figures) on assaults and jump off when they reached enemy lines to clear the trenches, etc. I'd suppose that if they were to shoot at some brave Wehrmacht soldier with a grenade bundle or a Panzerfaust, shooting from the back of a speeding, rocking tank with an SMG would be somewhat more effective than with a rifle as well.

Michael

[Sergei]

Another benefit about SMG's is that when one of your comrades falls, you can pick up his weapon and fire akimbo, doubling your firepower (although then you can't, while firing your weapon from the hip, reach with your free hand for a hand grenade and pull the pin with your teeth). You can't do that with a rifle.

Of course, the climax of this would be running around shooting with two Bren's with tripods.

[General Bolt]

Great pict of MY governor. God Bless Arnie and the amendment that will make him President. Sorry wrong forum.

[Thermopylae]

Modern Fire Team (US)

Team Leader (SGT) w/ M4 (carbine)

Auto Rifleman w/ SAW (light machine gun)

Grenadier w/ M4/204 (carbine w/ underslung GL)

Rifleman w/ M4

Squad is two fire teams and a squad leade, also armed with a carbine.

[flamingknives]

Team leader is usually a corporal, isn't it? Sgt as squad leader.

British section these days:

2x fireteam

team leader (cpl) SA80

grenadier SA80 + AG36 (40mm GL)

Automatic rifleman FN Minimi Para

Rifleman SA80 LSW.

Not skimping on the specialised firepower

[llama]

Interesting that the Brits have gone to a corporal per fire team. Who runs the section these days?

Traditionally a Brit Infantry Section was lead by a corporal with a lance corporal as 2 I/C.

Plus two LMG equivalents rather than the traditional one. And two grenade launchers. HMG is certainly splashing out on the hardware since my days in the ranks when a full strngth section would be armed with 1xGPMG and 9xSLR (note no SMG in an infantry section at all - no one wanted the bloody awful and useless Sterling).

Cheers

[flamingknives]

Bah, my bad. Cpl i/c of one, LCpl i/c the other. Cpl has command of the whole section. GPMGs have been moved to a platoon weapons squad, an there's a liberal sprinkling of LAWs to go around (LAW80 at the moment, being replaced by NLAW, which is like a personal Javelin.)

[Thermopylae]

No, most americans have an E-5 (SGT) as a team leader, though occassionally an E-4. (CPL). The squad leade ris usually an E-6 (SSG) or very experienced E-5. But then, we have a ton of NCOs.