HQs ahead lagging hiding spotting, woods cover?

[Günzel for Kanzler]

Hi, some questions on the use of HQs:

1.are there good reasons for HQs to be positioned ahead thus in front of their platoon, other than just the target spotting for mortars?

2.any strategic differences between battallion/company HQ and platoon HQ (except for section HQs), provided they have same bonuses?

3.other good reasons for HQs to stay behind, except for cover and not being targetted?

4.does hiding HQs have any other effects besides of no spotting?

5.About cover, does a squad gain physical protection from bullets by being 20metres into woods, compared to 5metres into woods?

[ September 08, 2004, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Günzel for Kanzler ]

[Elmar Bijlsma]

1) No, no good reasons, only good reasons not to. They can spot for your mortars from slightly behind too.

2)Not in as far as bonusses go. They have the aded benefit of being able to command every unit without HQ though. 1st platoon cannot take over 2nd platoon. Companies are not so hindered.

3)You mean left out of the fighting altogether? I always bring them along. It's just a few rifles and grenades extra but they do help. And it means the enemy fire may gets spread over 4 units instead of just the three squads, rducing supression a bit.

4)huh?

5)AFAIK it helps in spotting but as far as cover goes you are either in woods or you are not.

[xerxes]

HQs and other units with Binocs spot significantly better. You want Binoc units with good broad LOS to pick out and ID the enemy.

Better to do this with low-value HQs.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Günzel for Kanzler:

1.are there good reasons for HQs to be positioned ahead thus in front of their platoon, other than just the target spotting for mortars?

Not only spotting for mortars. With their binocular they spot far better than normal squads.

2.any strategic differences between battallion/company HQ and platoon HQ (except for section HQs), provided they have same bonuses?

You probably know that company and battalion HQs can command any squad. The size also plays a role, a bigger HQ doesn't get eliminated as quickly.

3.other good reasons for HQs to stay behind, except for cover and not being targetted?

Faster retreat. Be in a better position to bring back squads which ran to the back. Assume command of units send as reinforcements earlier.

4.does hiding HQs have any other effects besides of no spotting?

It is not "no spotting". It is reduced spotting.

I would assume that the vulnerability is different between kneeling (that's what CM infantry does when not moving and not hiding) and laying down. Unfortunately tests in CMBB indicated that the laying down position makes units more, not less, vulnerable

5.About cover, does a squad gain physical protection from bullets by being 20metres into woods, compared to 5metres into woods?

I don't think so. The only effect that a LOS through woods has seems to be lower hit probability for anti-armor shots.

[YankeeDog]

A few additional comments:

1) As Redwolf notes, it is sometimes useful to edge the HQ unit ahead of the squads so it can use it's binoculars to identify enemy units. HQ units are also smaller, and therefore more difficult to spot, and also seem to have better fire discipline -- they're less likely to reveal themselves by firing at an enemy unit in contravention of a CA or Hide order. In approach march I frequently have my lead squad(s) halt 10-15m from the edge of a treeline (close enough to ensure that the trees are empty of enemy, but still far enough in to make spotting by more distant enemy unlikely), and then extend the HQ's movement order to within 2-3m of the treeline so he has a good view of what's beyond.

5) Actually, I'm pretty sure being deeper into a body of cover that degrades LOS does reduce exposure. Try this: fire up the editor, and make a small scenario with one MG one one side, and a few infantry squads on the other. Put the infantry squads varying depths into a patch of woods, from right at the edge, back to the limit of the MG's LOS into the woods (about 20-25m in good light conditions). Then run the scenario with no FOW (so the MG will always be able to see the squad). If you use the LOS tool to check, I'm pretty sure you'll find that the exposure % goes down from about 14-15% right at the edge of the trees, down on 11-12% deeper in (but still in LOS). That corresponds to a 20% reduction in the effectiveness of incoming fire.

Cheers,

YD

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

HQ units are also smaller, and therefore more difficult to spot, and also seem to have better fire discipline -- they're less likely to reveal themselves by firing at an enemy unit in contravention of a CA or Hide order.

I am reasonably sure that they are not harder to spot. I think only sharpshooters are harder to spot, everybody else is the same modulo HQ bonuses.

The firing discipline is a valid point. HQs are far better at following order, this and others. If you need to take your chances to destroy an enemy tank with hand grenades HQs work much better. You might want to take that into account when positioning.

I stand corrected on the deeper into woods issue. But of course it will (should) also limit outgoing fire.

[YankeeDog]

Yes, being deeper into the woods will defintely reduce the effectiveness of fire going both ways -- you can just check the LOS lines from the squads to the MG to confirm this.

The fact that HQs are better at close assaulting AFVs is a good point too. If I'm in as situation where I have to close assault with plain infantry (rather than IAT teams), if I can I try to engage with a squad or half squad first as 'decoy' to attract the AFV's attention, and then move the HQ in to (hopefully) get the kill.

As far a HQs not being harder to spot, I seem to recall that way back in CMBO days someone did a test that showed that infantry units 'spottability' was directly related to their head count. That is, 8-12 man full squads were easier to spot than 4-6 man half squads, which were in turn easier to spot than 3-4 man HQs, and so on down to 2-man teams and sharpshooters.

Maybe I'm misremembering, though. Kind of a PITA thing to test, too since you have to come up with just the right LOS conditions to create a situation where there will be a really noticable difference in the range at which the units are picked up (assuming there is a difference. . .).

Cheers,

YD

[Günzel for Kanzler]

Some threads I searched claimed that split squads are harder to spot than full squads. So HQs should be harder to spot than squads, I guess.

Thanks for your answers, gained some tweaks.

[Hensworth]

Originally posted by Günzel for Kanzler:

Some threads I searched claimed that split squads are harder to spot than full squads. So HQs should be harder to spot than squads, I guess.

Thanks for your answers, gained some tweaks.

That is correct.

I remember a time when I needed a company to cross a vast open expanse of snow covered by MG bunkers. Having nothing that could take out the bunkers (I could not even spot them, but I knew they were there from the briefing) and no smoke, I was seriously stuck.

The first platoon I sent out came back routed as you would expect.

Then I tried splitting all the squads and walking them out one by one and it worked. By walking in small groups spaced about 50m apart, the whole company crossed an icy snowfield unseen !

Since then it's a trick I use regularly and it has greatly increased my ability to sneak up on a defender unnoticed.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Sgt_Kelly:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Günzel for Kanzler:

Some threads I searched claimed that split squads are harder to spot than full squads. So HQs should be harder to spot than squads, I guess.

Thanks for your answers, gained some tweaks.

That is correct.

</font>

[Broken]

Originally posted by Redwolf:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by YankeeDog:

HQ units are also smaller, and therefore more difficult to spot, and also seem to have better fire discipline -- they're less likely to reveal themselves by firing at an enemy unit in contravention of a CA or Hide order.

I am reasonably sure that they are not harder to spot. I think only sharpshooters are harder to spot, everybody else is the same modulo HQ bonuses.

</font>