Gameplay questions regarding AI

[Blah Blah Blah]

I am playing the demo with the AI on 2+ experience points. The battle is the ‘Line of Defence’.

It may be my interpretation on what is occurring is not correct, but you and I know that that could not be the case!

I would also like to state up front that even from the demo I can see some great improvements over the previous games (demo experience only, have discussed the poor demo being the reason for not buying CMBB, I have ordered CMAK). There are many things that I like.

First point – The AI’s ability to spot the enemy

I would like some feed back on the AI’s ability to spot an enemy. It is my opinion, especially during battle, that their ability is too good.

Instance One - In the in the thick of battle (i.e. turn 25+), at several hundred metres (generally 350+), the AI almost instantly sees my men as they run from one building to the next. Worse yet, they quit often get a few shots off at them. In this case it is predominantly the armoured vehicles, however, I have seen some simular instances in the left hand side of the battle field (from the German side) at ranges of 200+ metres by infantry.

Instance Two – With my Panzerschreck initially hidden in a building, I target the enemy tank 30+ metres away. One rocket and the job is done. BUT instantly the entire tank force knows that they are there and has started shooting the building within seconds. In the case just mentioned, most if not all tanks were buttoned up, but regardless, it takes less than 5 seconds from firing to the destruction of the enemy tank, and unless you were looking directly at the area you would miss it. This type of situation has occurred often, not just once.

Instance Three – My AT gun starts to nail a Sherman tank. The Sherman targeted though buttoned up in the first instance, quickly starts returning fire. I would have thought that they would unlikely know where they are getting targeted from and would have scooted to safety first. There does not seem to be a concealment bonus for being in the woods.

Second Point - The AI’s ability to shoot a newly acquired target

Instance One - It seems unrealistic how quickly the AI can change from one target onto the next and back again. Again more evident (obvious?) in the armoured vehicles, but they seem to be able to very quickly shoot at the newly acquired Target B who is over 60 degrees away from the original target, and then either back to the original or onto a new target. There does not appear to be a suitable pause to bring the weapon to bear, to then target before shooting.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Zebulon Pleasure Beast]

You do realize that the +2 experience means regular troops are crack and veterans are elite? This is a hell of an improvement, and there's a reason you don't see them often in scenarios. They really kick some serious posterior. Even regular troops are supposed to have some combat experience in CM, not to mention crack troops who have fought for long and hard, you would kind of expect them to have developed quite a keen sense of noticing good ambush spots, spotting muzzle flashes, dust clouds and smaller indicators of where incoming fire is coming and noticing smaller things that might indicate the enemy is dug-in somewhere. Not to mention keeping their cool and the ability to act professionally under fire. Remember CM is a computer game, and things have to be abstracted.

Having played the full game for some time now, I can't say this kind of behaviour would be commonplace, atleast with the medium experience troops I play with.

[Kwazydog]

Hehe, good point...this might explain quite a few of your concerns youve posted Blah

Crack and elite troops represent the best of the best and should rarely be seen on the battlefield. If you are looking for a more challanging battle without playing against sharp shooting tank gunners, try increasing the play balance in favour of the enemy...this should give them more equipment but not raise their experience levels.

Dan

[ November 29, 2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Redwolf]

Regarding your first point:

never move infantry in open ground (or roads etc) in sight of the enemy. There is a 100% chance of being spotted, the current CM doesn't not have a chance of you getting away unnoticed, there is no randomization. If you are in a certain range you are seen in open ground, no matter how short your stay in the open is.

As for the second point, the massive return fire is a result of absolute spotting which is hard to fix. Compared to reality your setup, especially a defensive one, should be modified to better ensure that only carefully selected areas allow the enemy to return fire, i.e. you need keyholing more urgently. Or in other words, in real life people could often shoot up single tanks while the other were in sight but wouldn't get the idea in time. Not so in CM.

[ November 29, 2003, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Ron]

All good points and things I have observed also, and that's when playing with no computer experience bonus. To be honest it has always been evident to some degree in the CM titles but it is my impression from the CMAK Demo the TacAI is on speed when targetting and spotting fresh contacts. It could be the smallish maps and close ranges of engagements I don't know, but it is something that appears to have gotten worse and not better. Time will tell...

Ron

[Kwazydog]

Redwolf makes a good point there too...absolute spotting is something that has been in all versions of CM thus far.

Blah, try doing some searches on 'absolute spotting' or 'borg spotting' and look for some of the responses from Steve (from battlefront). He goes into the issue, why it is something that difficult to work around and give some clues into how we may tackle the issue in the future

Dan

[ November 30, 2003, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Blah Blah Blah:

It seems unrealistic how quickly the AI can change from one target onto the next and back again. Again more evident (obvious?) in the armoured vehicles, but they seem to be able to very quickly shoot at the newly acquired Target B who is over 60 degrees away from the original target, and then either back to the original or onto a new target. There does not appear to be a suitable pause to bring the weapon to bear, to then target before shooting.

I have a different complaint regarding this. In Frühlingswind, my crews are constantly switching targets. Since it takes a green crew longer to aim and get a shot off, it means that the clock has to restart each time they retarget and they spend the turn retargetting and not shooting. Even though they may have targets visible throughout the turn, they are only getting off two or three shots per turn. The whole behavior is contrary to that of real life tank and gun crews as I understand it.

What I would like to see is the crews selecting a target and sticking with it unless one of the following conditions is fulfilled:

1. I manually retarget it.

2. An enemy unit that a constitutes grave imminent danger appears and begins to target them.

3. A target of higher value presents itself in such a manner to offer a high probability of a swift kill.

Otherwise, I want them to stay with their original target until it has either been destroyed or, if a personnel unit, driven to ground or seen to be in flight.

I realize that some of these involve subtle distinctions and it may require some tweaking to get just right, but I wanted to state what I would regard as desirable goals.

Michael

[Blah Blah Blah]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Regarding your first point:

never move infantry in open ground (or roads etc) in sight of the enemy. There is a 100% chance of being spotted, the current CM doesn't not have a chance of you getting away unnoticed, there is no randomization. If you are in a certain range you are seen in open ground, no matter how short your stay in the open is.

Bit of a sticky point old chap! If I must move my men where they will get spotted, what is the lapse time to the next move. That is, how long before they will not be the focal point from the last sighting?

Originally posted by redwolf:

As for the second point, the massive return fire is a result of absolute spotting which is hard to fix. Compared to reality your setup, especially a defensive one, should be modified to better ensure that only carefully selected areas allow the enemy to return fire, i.e. you need keyholing more urgently. Or in other words, in real life people could often shoot up single tanks while the other were in sight but wouldn't get the idea in time. Not so in CM.

I would be interested if you could send me a setup so that I may, with all sincerity, learn from one of the masters

blah@mistari.com.au

SPOILER??

I have played 5+ battles as the Germans in the Line of Defence and had won all till the last, where I got my ass kicked by turn 30. The P51 took out my STuh hidding on the left hand side in the first few moves. The Tanks all filed down the left hand side and down through the trees. A Sherman took out the stub nose gun, and all my other AT assets were along the front and on the other side. It was a slaughter

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Blah Blah Blah:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by redwolf:

Regarding your first point:

never move infantry in open ground (or roads etc) in sight of the enemy. There is a 100% chance of being spotted, the current CM doesn't not have a chance of you getting away unnoticed, there is no randomization. If you are in a certain range you are seen in open ground, no matter how short your stay in the open is.

Bit of a sticky point old chap! If I must move my men where they will get spotted, what is the lapse time to the next move. That is, how long before they will not be the focal point from the last sighting?

</font>