British Tommy Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Well Gentlemen, it has been an interesting read! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botto Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 :cool: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botto Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by Pkunzipper: I agree. This is one of the few times I see this topic discussed with enough intelligence by everyone... Botto, the ones that fought with RSI were no more and no less brave than the ones that stayed with the king or the partisans... Men of all nations are equals, what that makes them behave in differents way are things like motivations (remember that Mussolini never was democratically elected), quality of weapons and their effectivness against enemy (Italy had no effective AT weapons, few SMG and also an old inadeguate 6.5mm rifle!), supplies and leadership. Well said I have full respect for those who took to the hills and mountains to fight the Germans The only ones I have no respect for (and this applies to RSI aswell) are those who did war-crimes against their fellow Italians... Italy did have good SMG in form of Beretta 38 but you are correct, there was never enough to be very effective The lack of AT weapons was very disastrous for the soldiers (especially in Russia) [ December 15, 2003, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Botto ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3333cr333tz Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Rommel, when not in the depths of one of his severe depressions often lavished the regular italian infantry with praise. I don't have a direct quote handy, but he said the Italian infantry were brave and fantastic, the Italian generals however Rommel felt were total tools ;p Rommel has also said that one of the reasons for the sometimes poor performance of the Italians was also due to the condition of equipment they were sent into battle with. Rommel was horrified that the Italian Command was sending the Italians into battle with the trash they were. Sort of the same situation as the romanians, they fought hard, but at some point blood sweat and tears don't cut the mustard against an enemy as motivated as you but with much better equipment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botto Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 "The German soldier amazed the world, the Italian soldier amazed the Germans" Rommel's quote was something along those lines, I'll try to find the exact text 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 (remember that Mussolini never was democratically elected)TE] wrong!....Mussolini was a member of the Italian Parliament...then he became a dictator with anti-democratic laws...the same for Hitler :cool: democracy is so great a political system that make possible to elect a would-be dictator. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by von Lucke: Would be better to rewrite it, tho. Highly democratic societies (usually) produce *thinking* people, people able to defend well their country but usually not able to invade and committ atrocities against other people. WW1 and WW2 are good examples of that, read Hemingway ("Farewell to the arms" and "Across the river and into the trees") if you dont want to read good but boring history books. And be aware, official UK unit diaries in NA and especially Monty's memories are known to be badly biased. They simply could not accept to be beaten by italians even if it happened only a few times. What italian soldiers did in the south front of El Alamein probably will remain unknown. In the same way it will remain unknown how many german soldiers have been saved by italian troops in Russia breaking out pockets fighting with bayonets and grenades. It is embarassing for germans to admit it: the mighty german army helped by those bloody "Alpini" Read P.Caccia Dominioni's "Alamein" just to know "how" the italians fought. Theres a nice story in this book about a platoon of italian sappers that went across the minefield, under the enemy fire, just to save a crying german soldier *left there by his fellows* ... Dominioni's book is even mentioned by Corelli Barnett in his "Desert Generals". Or read Beurling's (usually really tough against enemies) words about italian pilots over NA, Malta and Sicily: "they will stick it even if things are going against them, whereas the Jerries will run". We have about ten thousands soldiers spread all over the world in those so called "peacekeeping" missions. We have probably the best peacekeepers: the Carabinieri units. However conquering and winning is not in our history. And I hope it will never be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pkunzipper Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Well, an election with a plenty of "sqadristi" or black shirt (as well SA or SS) walking around are not so democratic...! In addition when the media power is all in the hand of one man (Mussolini in '20-'30, nowadays Berlus....ehm this is another issue...!! ) some people easily vote for the wrong party only becaue they are mis-informed.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 . However conquering and winning is not in our history. And I hope it will never be. Wasn't there a homosexual Italian with a bad haircut who conquered Gaul, and another gay one with a bad beard who conquered Scotland & Rumania? Luckily for the rest of the world, Italians discovered women are much more fun than creating empires, and we have been safe ever since! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Oh well, since the fall of the Roman Empire we have been invaded and conquered so many times by so many tribes and nations that little of that blood still runs in our veins. We have been divided for such a long time we still are not able to feel ourselves a nation. Still today. And thats a big problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Originally posted by Wisbech_lad: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> . However conquering and winning is not in our history. And I hope it will never be. Wasn't there a homosexual Italian with a bad haircut who conquered Gaul, and another gay one with a bad beard who conquered Scotland & Rumania? Luckily for the rest of the world, Italians discovered women are much more fun than creating empires, and we have been safe ever since! </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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