Grogs: Need western tank crew info

[Zipper]

Hi tank grogs,

I'm looking for information about US, British, and Canadian tank crews in WWII. Specifically: ranks, primary and secondary responsibilities (e.g., was there a designated mechanic?), training, verbal commands, standard tactics, and more.

battlefield.ru has some great Soviet oral histories that often illuminate many of the things I'm looking for - is there an equivalent site for western forces?

Any info or pointers greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Zipper

[Michael Emrys]

I'll take a few SWAGs. Don't take them as authority, but they might help to organize your search.

TCs were usually sergeants with corporals for gunners and the rest of the crews privates or PFCs (lance corporals in the BCE armies). Platoon (troop) leaders were lieutenants unless they had run out of those, in which case it was a senior sergeant. Companies (squadrons) were most often led by captains in the US Army and majors in the BCE armies.

As for designated mechanic, I suppose most of that would have fallen on the driver and his assistant if he had one, though everybody pitched in at need for heavy jobs like repairing a track. The gunner and loader were busy taking care of the ordnance and ammo replenishment. The TC lent a hand wherever he could when he wasn't at an orders meeting or otherwise occupied. Whoever wasn't busy with something else brewed the tea (BCE) or heated water for coffee (USA) and cooked the stew.

HTH

Michael

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Whoever wasn't busy with something else brewed the tea (BCE) or heated water for coffee

Wouldn't they just have taken the water straight from the engine's radiator, so no need for heating? The same with water-cooled HMG's like Vickers (except with Finns and Russians, who used them as vodka storage to prevent the coolant from freezing during winter).

Go ahead, take my word.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Wouldn't they just have taken the water straight from the engine's radiator, so no need for heating?

Bleh! You can drink water from a radiator if you want to (yeah, I know it was done sometimes when that was the only water to be found on the desert), but I think I'll pass. Most of the time I think the soldiers passed on it as well. In all the accounts I have read, they heated water over an impromptu stove created by pouring gasoline on a can full of sand and tossing in a lit match.

Michael

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Bleh! You can drink water from a radiator if you want to (yeah, I know it was done sometimes when that was the only water to be found on the desert), but I think I'll pass.

Well who gives a flipper about what you like to poison yourself with, you weren't there!

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Bleh! You can drink water from a radiator if you want to (yeah, I know it was done sometimes when that was the only water to be found on the desert), but I think I'll pass.

Well who gives a flipper about what you like to poison yourself with, you weren't there! </font>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

Bleh! You can drink water from a radiator if you want to (yeah, I know it was done sometimes when that was the only water to be found on the desert), but I think I'll pass.

Well who gives a flipper about what you like to poison yourself with, you weren't there! </font>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Zipper:

Hi tank grogs,

I'm looking for information about US, British, and Canadian tank crews in WWII. Specifically: ranks, primary and secondary responsibilities (e.g., was there a designated mechanic?), training, verbal commands, standard tactics, and more.

battlefield.ru has some great Soviet oral histories that often illuminate many of the things I'm looking for - is there an equivalent site for western forces?

Any info or pointers greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Zipper

British and Canadian tank troop (what the US and Germans called a platoon) -

One tank was commanded by the troop commander, usually a lieutenant.

One tank commanded by the troop sergeant, a sergeant

One tank commanded by the troop corporal, a corporal

(Some troops had 3 tanks, some 4, some 5, depending on the date and unit)

The others in the troop were generally troopers (the specific rank designation for a private in an armoured or cavalry regiment). Possibly some lance corporals.

A tank squadron was made up of three or more troops, commanded by a captain or major. A Squadron Sergeant Major (SSM) ranked as WO II performed the same roles as a CSM in infantry companies, ie prisoners, ammo, discipline. A Squadron Quartermaster Sergeant, ranked as Staff Sergeant, handled the supplies.

A really good book on Canadian tank crews is PEEWEES ON PARADE by a soldier who started as a private in the South Alberta Regiment and fought through the war, ending up as a troop sergeant.

Gwilym Jones, a tanker in Italy with the Three Rivers Regiment, wrote TO THE GREEN FIELDS BEYOND.

And SOUTH ALBERTAS: A CANADIAN REGIMENT AT WAR by Donald Graves has an excellent primer on tank units in WW II as one of the appendices. It is unfortunately out of print now.

Jean Bouchery has some info in THE BRITISH SOLDIER and presumably also THE CANADIAN SOLDIER though I haven't yet picked up a copy of the latter.

[Michael Dorosh]

From the South Alberta history -

daily parades were broken down, typically, as follows -

Crew Commander (the regiment used Shermans) - check internal and external stowage, turret intercom, fire extinguishers, order other tests as required and do all paperwork

Driver - check fluid levels with engine running and off, check guages, check lights, check periscope, engine and transmission components, clutch, air cleaners, throttle controls, fuel filter, inspect suspension at regular intervals, lubricate anything requiringit

Co-Driver - assist driver as required, check and oil bow .30 MG, test intercom, check periscope, clean compartment thoroughly

Gunner - clean and test main gun and co-ax MG, test turret traverse by hand and power, check periscope and telescopic sight, align sights as required, assist in checking suspension, oil weapons, check recoil and stabilizer systems, fill or bleed as required

Loader-Operator - check all electrical systems, carry out wireless netting drills, check periscope, assist driver with checking oil levels in engine, maintain Homelite, replenish drinking water, check all hatches, ports, etc., in turret and oil if necessary, check interior lights, check turret chamber and floor for any oil leaks from equipment

There were no "mechanics" in the tank troops. Detailed maintenance was done by the regimental fitters; jobs they didn't have the tool for went to members of the Light Aid Detachment of the Royal Canadian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (or REME in the British Army), which was created in February 1944. Each armoured unit had its own LAD (not sure what was done before Feb 44).

Really serious repairs were done by the Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps (or RAOC in the British Army) units at the divisional level. Tanks sent back that far were usually refurbished or overhauled, or salvaged, and did not come back to the regiment that they previously belonged to, but went to an Armoured Delivery Squadron, and issued out to the first unit that needed it.

In theory, each vehicle got a "first parade" and a "last parade" each day. Parades usually took about 45 minutes in the morning and two hours in the evening. Sometimes time was set off once a week to do maintenance that couldn't be done in the daily maintenance sessions. All of this was subject to the tactical situation and whether or not the unit was in contact, naturally.

We still use first and last parades in the Canadian Army, though my own experience has been that drivers will be lax if they are allowed to be lax. In wartime, with your life depending on your equipment, I imagine the routine was followed closely.

[ December 04, 2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

TCs were usually sergeants with corporals for gunners and the rest of the crews privates or PFCs (lance corporals in the BCE armies). Platoon (troop) leaders were lieutenants unless they had run out of those, in which case it was a senior sergeant. Companies (squadrons) were most often led by captains in the US Army and majors in the BCE armies.

In the British army the troop (platoon) commander was usually a lieutenant with the other tanks being commanded by the troop sergeant and corporals. The loader was normally the deputy TC and was a lance-corporal, the rest of the crew being troopers (privates). Often in later Sherman equiped units the troop sergeant got the Firefly. Of course in practice things were changed around because of availability and so forth, I've seen references to troops being commanded by the Company Sergeant-Major (a warrant officer) and Ken Tout tells of how when he took over from his injured TC in Normandy, the rest of the crew joked with him about contacting the corporals' union, because he remained a lance-corporal for a while.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:

Well who gives a flipper about what you like to poison yourself with, you weren't there!

And you were, I suppose?

Michael </font>

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Firefly:

I've seen references to troops being commanded by the Company Sergeant-Major (a warrant officer)

As indicated above, he was referred to as a Squadron Sergeant Major and was ranked as a Warrant Officer, II Class.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Why would anyone take water from a radiator? You'd just have to put it back at some point. Equipment comes before personal comfort...

Huh? What goes in, comes out. Especially as there are no toilets in the desert, this issue should be easy enough to solve. Later Frank Herbert applied the same principle in his novel 'Dune' (I'm not talking about the film, that was not very realistic).

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Why would anyone take water from a radiator? You'd just have to put it back at some point. Equipment comes before personal comfort...

Huh? What goes in, comes out. Especially as there are no toilets in the desert, this issue should be easy enough to solve. Later Frank Herbert applied the same principle in his novel 'Dune' (I'm not talking about the film, that was not very realistic). </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Second Edit - note also the reference to Homelite above; I believe this was a petrol or kerosene stove used for cooking; maintaining it was part of the daily maintenance routine for the tank crew, who messed together.

Ah. I was wondering what they were doing with chain saws.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Why would anyone take water from a radiator? You'd just have to put it back at some point. Equipment comes before personal comfort...

Huh? What goes in, comes out. Especially as there are no toilets in the desert, this issue should be easy enough to solve.</font>

[Firefly]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

not to mention the British invented the Tommy Cooker for the specific purpose of making tea - sand and petrol mixed in a cut down flimsy, set alight, provided even heat for tea.

They also stewed the tea, i.e. they added tea, milk and sugar to the water and then boiled it. I can tell you from experience that this results in the most disgusting cup of tea imaginable (but I've never been to North America ).

[Zipper]

Thanks very much for the info, everyone. It was very illuminating... well, most of it, anyway.

Next time I need to brew some tea, I know where to turn.

Zipper

[Michael Dorosh]

I believe the issue compo rations actually had the tea, whitener and sugar premixed now that you mention it, at least by Normandy. Not sure if this was desert experience at work or not...

Stewed Tea....when I was in the UK in 1990 staying at the Guards Depot (Pirbright) and the Scottish Division Infantry Depot (Glencorse), we laughed at the delicacy known in British messes as Fried Bread.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I believe the issue compo rations actually had the tea, whitener and sugar premixed now that you mention it, at least by Normandy. Not sure if this was desert experience at work or not...

I don't think so based on dozens of accounts I've read of tea making in the desert, a few of them fairly precise. But I could be mistaken.

Stewed Tea....when I was in the UK in 1990 staying at the Guards Depot (Pirbright) and the Scottish Division Infantry Depot (Glencorse), we laughed at the delicacy known in British messes as Fried Bread.

I had seen references to this in novels and so I asked an English-born friend about it one time. I thought maybe it was just an English expression for pancakes, but she said no, it's exactly what it's called. Not nearly as odd as beans on toast, I'd say. Though, having tried that, I didn't find it in any way offensive. Just a little odd.

I think I'll go make a cuppa...if Sergei isn't around it should be safe!

Michael