Seeking missing tank survivability data for Western Desert

[John Kettler]

Desired material appeared in one of the CMAK gunnery threads (swallowed in a board crash, I think) and quoted British OR findings of relative nonlethality of 2 pdr. vs. German tanks and crews, as contrasted with the devastation to tanks and crews hit by German 5 cm AP shell which detonated even with only half the shell inside the fighting compartment. Summary conclusions were that 2 pdr. penetrations did relatively little and repairable damage to the German tank hit and little to the crews, while under the conditions described above, a German AP shell detonation wrecked the British tank beyond repair and wounded or killed practically the entire crew as well. Would like the material to share with rexford and the troops.

John D. Salt is not the source. Have already checked with him. No joy. Anyone have this valuable info?

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Wanted to note that while rooting about in the Archives I found a November 2001? post by Bastables which seems to be along the lines I'm seeking. The piece he posted was a truncated excerpt of what I remember, and the source cited was listed as "Jentz 1998." Apparently extracted from a British OR report, the passage illustrates the dramatic differences between 2 pdr. AP shot lethality as compared to German 50mm, 75mm, and 88mm AP shells.

Believe there's also some discussion of German 37mm

and of a 47mm as well.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Success!

While hunting for something else in my E-mail archives I found several messages from David Honner

of the Guns vs. Armor site. The excerpts are used with his permission and stem from my queries to him in an effort to improve modeling of terminal effects in Panzer Elite, having learned that at the time, the game treated AP shot and AP shell identically.

"German tank designs had several precautions to reduce the probability of fire as a result of penetration. Fuel tanks were separated from the crew compartment by a 5mm thick firewall (Pz.I). In the Pz.II this was 8mm thick armour plate. Main gun ammunition in the Pz.III and Pz.IV was stowed in bins with sides 4 to 6mm thick.

The destructive effect after penetration of an AP projectile with no HE filler was based solely on whatever kinetic energy remained in the solid shot, shot fragments if it shattered, and/or fragments of armour plate broken off by the hit.

British 2-pounder AP vs German tanks - At ranges of 600 to 1500 yards frequently resulted in crew being wounded but infrequently resulted in destruction of the tank by causing irreparable damage or by setting it on fire. Of those Pz.III and Pz.IV knocked out in combat by British 2-pounder AP shot, fewer than 20% were irreparable.

German 37mm+ vs British tanks (Western Desert) - frequently resulted in crew members being wounded as well as destruction of the tank, by fire or by

making it irreparable. Not until 1942 did the British investigate the cause of those fires and begin to install armoured bins to protect the ammunition ... (poor bloody Brits).

Quote from Major Jarrett in May 1942: "... These projectiles (47mm, 50mm, 75mm and 88mm) at long ranges need only obtain a partial penetration and the explosive charge can complete the destruction of at least the tank crew. At closer ranges the destructive effect is very great, where in many cases destruction of the tank is permanent."

Another quote from a US Lt. Col. Gruver in May 1942 seems to indicate that German ammunition was superior to US. This quote was referring to a German 75mm K.Gr.rot Pz projectile fitted to an American casing and fired from a 75mm M2 gun in May 1942: "Each German AP-HE round fired may safely be

presumed to have put the tank out of action. In this connection it was noted that the fuze functioned perfectly, that is to say it functioned only after penetration and then always in the fighting compartment where the most damage is done. Parts also frequently penetrated into the engine

compartment."

Note that Pz.Gr.40 (APCR) has no HE filler (someone on your site said it did - a typing error I'm sure). Italian 47mm AP shells also had HE filler, and also frequently wounded British crew members and irreparably destroyed the tank after any

penetration.

An interesting quote which highlights the ineffectiveness of a lack of HE filler. It is from a British report on the action of the Cruiser tanks in combat, 10Feb to 4 April '41 by Major Gordon-Hall: "... The armour of the A 9's and A 13's was frequently penetrated by 20mm AP which usually passed through both sides, sometimes without harming the crew." Note that the 20mm had no HE filler, so no charge went off inside the tank. Pretty weak armour protection though ...

Enough for now. More later. David Honner."

He was also kind enough to provide some useful AP shell explosive fill breakouts by shell type. Will address them later.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Dave H]

20 mm AP passed through both sides of the early cruiser tanks? I'll have to remember that the next time I face off against Italian armor. Silly me, I thought something called a "tank" could manage to at least stand up to small AT weapons. Obviously, these things are endangered if a crew member sneezes.

[Sergei]

Nice monologue, John. And we're glad that we could help you.

Dave, maybe the Brits expected that the next war would be fought using mind control beams, so they made tinfoil tanks?

[John Kettler]

Dave H,

The cruiser tanks were for rapid exploitation after a breakthrough occurred, hence were lightly armored and speedy. If you want something for the actual breakthrough, though, use heavily armored Matildas in conjunction with infantry. That's why they're called "I" tanks, since their job is to fight the infantry right through the enemy defenses, a task done basically at walking pace. The thick hide makes the Matilda practically immune to most weapons of the early war.

Sergei,

Zing!!! Seeing as how I have multiple threads going on this topic, some of which I can't locate,

I thought I'd try to keep my latest findings in one place. BTW, the Jentz book was apparently TANK COMBAT IN NORTH AFRICA.

Regards,

John Kettler