Pinkies

[Horncastle]

I havent got CMAK and not really had time to follow it closely, so apologies in advance if this has been asked and answered.

My question is is there a heavily MG armed Land rover unit to represent the modified vehicles the SAS began using in the desert during WWII. I know they were not common and did not overly swing the war, but as the game is meant to represent (well it did in CMBO days!) the tactical level rather than strategic, I would expect them to be included and would no doubt spawn many scenarios and be mighty popular. Though I expect crew modelling would be a bit of a sore point!

Also has there been any commando/sas/special unit added to the game? I never liked the idea of just tweaking squads to Elite level, as I dont think the units were anything too special just maybe there weapon load were different i.e. 8 Stens 1 bren and a load of demo charges (guessing a bit here!) an maybe no need for HQ

[Siege]

I see your concept there, and I wonder the same thing myself (As I can't afford CMAK until after christmas)

However, during the time frame of WWII it would have to be heavily modified Chevrolet trucks used by the LRDG. The SAS and their "Pink Panther" land rovers didn't come about until the 1950's, but were very similar to the LRDG in many respects. In fact, Land Rover didn't even exist until the late 1940's as a response to the flood of US made Civilian and surplus Jeeps.

-Hans

P.S. Yes, the Pink Panthers actually were painted pink. Seems that it's a very effective camo color in the desert

[Michael Emrys]

The photos of the SAS I've seen show them mainly driving jeeps. Heavily armed jeeps. As in 2-4 MGs. ISTR the occasional 2" mortar as well.

Michael

[Mark Gallear]

I havn't got my copy yet either. But the SAS did use jeeps in the desert - the first ones given lend lease to the British Army. Although you are right that the 1950s ones were called "Pink Panthers" and were named after the film! Armament varied a lot from two Vickers MGs in front and one inback to a .50 in front and in Vickers in the back.

The SAS did hit and run raids on ammo dumps and airfields. The LRDG - mainly New Zealanders started first did recon such as road watching counting Rommels supply trucks. Many later joined the SAS who needed their expertise. The LRDG mainly used trucks. Although the SAS had at least one LRDG truck to go with their Jeeps.

So Mike are they in the game if not I post my vote for them to go in the patch. (They would if the SAS were Finns!)

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

So Mike are they in the game...

I kind of doubt that they are as specifically identified units, but let me look and get back to you.

TTFN

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Okay, it doesn't look like we'e going to be able to accurately replicate SAS units in CM, either in QBs or the scenario editor. Not only are they not present as specifically designated unit types, you can't even come all that close to replicating them. I had hoped to be able to do something with paratroops/commandos, but they aren't present (at least until after Sept. '42, which is the month I checked). There are recon assault platoons, but they aren't quite the same thing. There are also armed jeeps, but they only have one MG each, which again isn't really the same thing in terms of being able to bring truly devastating firepower to bear.

Although I can undestand why BFC might ignore the contribution of small elite recce & raiding groups in the ETO and Eastern Front, they were a proportionately larger player in NA. Oh well, after the engine rewrite...

Michael

[Infelicitas]

Hey MikeyD, where from Maine are you? I'm from Auburn myself.

[Gpig]

You can sort of get the feel for LRDG trucks with the White Scout Car. This is little baby has a .30 cal and a .50 cal with plenty of ammo.

SPOILER!!!!

They are featured rather nicely in the TUTORIAL scenario on the CMAK disk.

Another nice tid-bit about them is that you can load em up with a half squad of troopers. Give those troopers some demo charges (and other goodies) and up their experience level and you've got a fair representation of the special teams involved. They can jump out anywhere and dole out the damage.

I sure liked using them in THAT scenario.

Gpig

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Gpig:

You can sort of get the feel for LRDG trucks with the White Scout Car. This is little baby has a .30 cal and a .50 cal with plenty of ammo.

I thought of that too, but the thing is; one, I don't think the LRDG trucks were that heavily armed; two, the Whites are also armored, admittedly not that much, but still...; and three, they may be too fast cross-country.

I sure liked using them in THAT scenario.

Well, yes, they are rather a lot of fun...until they start getting shot up anyway.

Michael

[Mark Gallear]

SAS fought from the jeeps driving up airfields firing all the guns on the jeeps. Only fought as ground infantry in their first outing which was a disaster with half of them killed in the para drop. They were only up against second rate Italian guards, who were less than keen to fire back. (Ok thats not entirely true and was filled with my British propaganda filled bias to my Italian friends - I take it back.) Never seen pics of the jeep mounted mortar ever!

Suppose Mr Moon could put them in with the double Vickers load out in a patch if he really, really wanted

I guess there are no ammo dump or airfield stuctures in CMAK for them to attack anyway (still not got the game) - probably should be as they are the only important stuctures in the Desert worth fighting over.

Big problem is that Combat Mission is usually played two play be email with points how do you get the option of buying SAS jeeps to fit into that!

The LRDG really just hid and observed - they would not have stood a chance if caught. Pictures of their Candian trucks show WW1 Lewis guns for air defence only.

You could use half engineer sections for them - to use when placing charges on aircraft etc. Would not have the arab head gear - which I suspect was only worn for proganda pictures anyway!

[ December 11, 2003, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[Ant]

Although you are right that the 1950s ones were called "Pink Panthers" and were named after the film!

Seems that the SAS have been getting some psychic training......the film 'The Pink Panther' was from 1964

[MikeyD]

"Hey MikeyD, where from Maine are you? I'm from Auburn myself."

Well, that question came out of the blue! Born & bred in the northern tip, Presque Isle. BFC's theoritcally got a Maine link (Farmington?), though the employees seem to in fact be spread halfway across the globe.

I recently discovered not far from my home town a VFW post with the triple gun mount out of M15 MGMC halftrack as gate guardian. I jumped a foot when I found the M15 in the CMAK!

---

And no, this has zero to do with the LRDG topic

[MadGav]

According to D I Harrison/These Men Are Dangerous the Jeeps used by the SAS late-war has something like 5 (!) Vickers K guns, which are tray fed, aircooled aircraft guns with a rof up there with an MG42. The passenger seat has a linked pair, there's a seconds pair in the back somewhere and the driver has one more.

Pinkies date from the early 60s according to the Ken Connor SAS history, that would fit with the film. The reformed SAS didn't get back to the middle east until 1958, not much use for Pinkies in Malaya!

Martin

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

Only fought as ground infantry in their first outing which was a disaster with half of them killed in the para drop.

I think that's not quite true. I think on a couple of occasions SAS personnel (usually singly) Walked through an Axis landing ground with a bag of pencil bombs and thoughtfully placed one inside the engine cowling of each plane they passed. They destroyed a couple of squadrons' worth of planes that way.

Fitzroy Maclean in his memoir of the war relates how three or four SAS personnel, including himself, spent a weekend in Benghazi either in late July or August of 1942. After hiding their truck, they strolled around noting the location of various targets to sabotage when they came back.

They did return in larger numbers in September, but it became obvious that the Germans/Italians had gotten wind of the raid and were expecting them, so the mission was aborted.

The point is, they took to their feet when the occasion demanded.

The LRDG really just hid and observed - they would not have stood a chance if caught.

Mostly they were there just to observe and report. But they also carried agents behind enemy lines and picked them up again. They also escorted SAS patrols to their destinations. Sometimes they engaged in a spot of sabotage themselves. But mainly their intelligence and reconnaisance mission was too important to risk drawing undue attention to themselves.

You could use half engineer sections for them - to use when placing charges on aircraft etc.

There are the recce platoons I mentioned. They aren't especially heavily armed. Maybe a mix of those and engineers...

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

I am truly disappointed that the Brits don't get Commandos. There were two groups of them sent to Middle East Command in 1940 in time for O'Connor's offensive. A third was later raised in-theater. They provided a covering force for the evacuation from Crete and they were involved in the invasion of Vichy Syria. They might have done even more if Middle East Command had had the imagination to use them. I would like to see the accurate modeling of Commando raids become an integral part of the CM capability.

Michael

[Mark Gallear]

So do I

(I think the disaster for the SAS was a training exercise [their first jump] - they were badly trained as parachutists and they dropped in high winds - I think half of them were killed. The concept was for parachute drops on ammo dumps etc, and then they would walk back to a point where the LRDG would pick them up.

David Sterling got permission to start the SAS after they did an unauthorised practice raid on a British airfield, avoided the guards and placed stickers saying blown up all over British aircraft parked on it! The top Brass after they calmed down realised the same thing would happen to Rommel.

The name Special Air Service started as a misinformation exercise with men wearing SAS badges going round the bars of Cairo in the hope of persuading Rommel, that the British had a large force of Paras in the region! In fact, Britain had no Paratroopers at all. The idea of them fighting as ground troops after parachuting onto their objective was abandoned after this.)

[ December 12, 2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[Monty's Double]

There's a great story about Vickers K armed jeeps (4 each I think) in France chopping a locomotive in half! I belive they were part of Popski's private army. Disappointed to hear they aren't in CMAK, though I can kind of see how they might be difficult to balance in terms of points. They would be awesome at suppressing gun crews, which would be pretty gamey, as they almost always engaged rear echelon stuff.

PS. LRDG ruled. They also had some fairly choice words about the SAS.

[Horncastle]

Okay doesnt sound like they are included! By the way the SAS were not just used in NA, I am sure they had many roles in the entire Med theatre and read about some SAS bloke getting a VC for clearing 4 MG nests I think in crete or somewhere similiar. They were also used in the western front I believe, cant really remember so not making a good case here. Do think however Commando units should be included, was suprised they were never in CMBO.

Take I think it was Norway and Dieppe there were around 6000 involved in the latter I believe from both Blighty and Cananda. They should really be included in future products I believe!

[Siege]

I know the Pink Panther cartoons were out well before the movie, and actually had a panther colored pink. The movie had the same inspector, but it was a diamond called the "pink panther diamond" instead of a furry animal.

I didn't know that about the "blown up" stickers in the forming of the SAS. But I do remember the story of the founder of the SBS stealing gun covers off a Royal Navy ship to prove his point.

-Hans

[Mark Gallear]

Siege is right some of them were painted Pink, I have seen one so coloured in a museum. (I think the Army Transport Museum near Hull) Cannot remember when the Pink Panther Rovers came out exactly, although I remember seeing one in the 1970s. (I was a kid then and it was green!)

As said earlier, the SAS was finished in 1945 and restarted for the Malayan War around 1950. Not a Film Grog so cannot comment on the film or cartoons. I think the name and colouring was a publicity stunt, either by Rover or the MOD! The Jeeps used in the first Gulf War were painted sand colour.