Grog question on French Colonial Trrops - Senegalese

[Hans]

We have any French Colonial troop Grog out there!

Can someone give me an idea of the relative rating of the various French colonial troops?

ie in the British Empire the Gurkhas and Sikhs were highly regarded followed by the Baluchis, Pathans etc.

Were do the Senegalese fit into the French frame work?

This is for a 23 May 1940 attack by the Senegalese on the Amiens bridgehead at Dury/Vers-sur-Selles/St.Fuscien

Thanks Hans

[Speedy]

WOW, 6 trrop threads!

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Hans:

We have any French Colonial troop Grog out there!

Can someone give me an idea of the relative rating of the various French colonial troops?

ie in the British Empire the Gurkhas and Sikhs were highly regarded followed by the Baluchis, Pathans etc.

Were do the Senegalese fit into the French frame work?

This is for a 23 May 1940 attack by the Senegalese on the Amiens bridgehead at Dury/Vers-sur-Selles/St.Fuscien

Thanks Hans

Hi there Hans,

I have long had an interest in French troops. Though "Grog" is a overstatement.

"Senegalais" was the French generic term for black troops, and so they needn't actually be from Senegal.

Black troops served in Senegalese regiments proper (RTS) but also in a variety of other forces, sometimes mixed with other "colours". You'll find the RTS proper on this informative page. Its in French but most words are such you use as loanwords in English.

The senegalese were numerous enough, and employed in such a variety of duties, as to present a very heterogenous picture (spelling?).

Some regiments, such as 24th, 7th and others, were outright legendary, acquiring their fame in WWI (Chemin des Dames) and retaining very high standards in WWII. The French held them in very high regard indeed, and some were permanently stationed in France.

Others still were mere barefoot, halftrained colonial police forces.

So it would all boil down to regiment.

Of course, in France 1940 you'd only find Senegalese that formed part of either the Colonial army, or the North African army. Both being bodies of professional long-term soldiers, they displayed quite another quality than the average French conscript or reserve units. We actually see these guys - I mean colonial forces black or white - in most successful undertakings made by the French in 1940.

Come to think of it, throughout the war, and in the postwar era as well.

The Senegalese served in the Colonial forces, but were included in the French North African army as well, for practical reasons.

The Colonial army had the same function as marines have (and are now called marines) and consisted of only 3 regular divisions, plus numerous garrisons.

The North African army included the Foreign Legion, Spahis, Chasseurs d'Afrique et cetera and could form 12 regular divisions, again plus garrisons and Sahara companies.

The regular elements of both armies were considered first rate troops.

Generally speaking the French (much like the British I find) tended to hold in highest regard those that had given them a beating most recently.

In WWII these were the berber and the Tonkinese. Berber tribesmen served in the North African army and appeared primarily in Moroccan units, but also in Algerian and, later on, Tunisian.

Also just like the British, they trusted to 100% only minority groups dependent on them, such as said Berbers, and indeed Khmers and Senegalese etc. Both factors limited their scope.

It being a fave topic, I can babble on forever here. But you were actually only interested in the Senegalese right?

Cheerio

Dandelion

Edited: So many typos and outright rotten English that even I was embarrassed.

[ August 22, 2004, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Dandelion ]

[Hans]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hans:

We have any French Colonial troop Grog out there!

Can someone give me an idea of the relative rating of the various French colonial troops?

ie in the British Empire the Gurkhas and Sikhs were highly regarded followed by the Baluchis, Pathans etc.

Were do the Senegalese fit into the French frame work?

This is for a 23 May 1940 attack by the Senegalese on the Amiens bridgehead at Dury/Vers-sur-Selles/St.Fuscien

Thanks Hans

Hi there Hans,

I have long had an interest in French troops. Though "Grog" is a overstatement.

"Senegalais" was the French generic term for black troops, and so they needn't actually be from Senegal.

Black troops served in Senegalese regiments proper (RTS) but also in a variety of other forces, sometimes mixed with other "colours". You'll find the RTS proper on this informative page. Its in French but most words are such you use as loanwords in English.

The senegalese were numerous enough, and employed in such a variety of duties, as to present a very heterogenous picture (spelling?).

Some regiments, such as 24th, 7th and others, were outright legendary, acquiring their fame in WWI (Chemin des Dames) and retaining very high standards in WWII. The French held them in very high regard indeed, and some were permanently stationed in France.

Others still were mere barefoot, halftrained colonial police forces.

So it would all boil down to regiment.

Of course, in France 1940 you'd only find Senegalese that formed part of either the Colonial army, or the North African army. Both being bodies of professional long-term soldiers, they displayed quite another quality than the average French conscript or reserve units. We actually see these guys - I mean colonial forces black or white - in most successful undertakings made by the French in 1940.

Come to think of it, throughout the war, and in the postwar era as well.

The Senegalese served in the Colonial forces, but were included in the French North African army as well, for practical reasons.

The Colonial army had the same function as marines have (and are now called marines) and consisted of only 3 regular divisions, plus numerous garrisons.

The North African army included the Foreign Legion, Spahis, Chasseurs d'Afrique et cetera and could form 12 regular divisions, again plus garrisons and Sahara companies.

The regular elements of both armies were considered first rate troops.

Generally speaking the French (much like the British I find) tended to hold in highest regard those that had given them a beating most recently.

In WWII these were the berber and the Tonkinese. Berber tribesmen served in the North African army and appeared primarily in Moroccan units, but also in Algerian and, later on, Tunisian.

Also just like the British, they trusted to 100% only minority groups dependent on them, such as said Berbers, and indeed Khmers and Senegalese etc. Both factors limited their scope.

It being a fave topic, I can babble on forever here. But you were actually only interested in the Senegalese right?

Cheerio

Dandelion

Edited: So many typos and outright rotten English that even I was embarrassed. </font>

[Hans]

Originally posted by Speedy:

WOW, 6 trrop threads!

Well when my technology makes a mistake I always blame society

[Dandelion]

It seems it was the 24th or 16th.

I failed to find any note on the battle itself in any source. But I was able to confirm that the 4e DIC was transferred, by rail and road, to the Amiens sector, arriving around May 20th, latest units arriving may 22nd it seems. It is then engaged in combat until june 4th.

It deploys there covering 20 km of frontage, linking up to its east (direction Abbeville) with 5 DIC and to the west with 7 DINA.

And I reason that if it was there on may 20th-22nd, covering most of the frontage of the bridgehead, and enetered combat immediately, it will reasonably have participated in any attack carried out there.

Furthermore, the only other Colonial forces containing senegalese in the area at the time were 5e DIC, which might have participated, and 7e DIC which could not have, as it is stated to have engaged in battle only in june. Apart from them, the closest Senegalese were fighting around Lyon by may 20th.

All Colonial Divisions (I take the opportunity of correcting myself, I write above there were 3, typo, should say 8) were made up of two senegalese regiments (RTS or RICMS) and one white regiment (RIC). Except 3e DIC which was all-white (1, 21, 23 RIC). Plus a GRDI. They had two artillery regiments, one medium and one heavy, both consisting of black troops (or Malgache).

The 4e DIC, our prime suspect for the Amiens bridgehead counterattacks, included

24e RTS (Lt.Col. Fabre),

16e RTS,

2eme RIC

12e RAC (Col.Arty Rgt)

212e RACL (Col.Heavy Arty Rgt.).

74e GRDI.

Plus divisionals.

The regiments were all to have three battallions, but the 24th had donated its second battallion to the 5e DIC.

The secondary suspect, 5e DIC, consisted of

44e RICM

53e RICM

22e RIC

75e GRDI

2 Artillery regiments (Names unknown)

The RICM were mixed regiments about 80-20 blacks and whites. The 22 RIC was odd insofar that it consisted almost entirely of Catalan troops. And the RICM were odd insofar as containing unusual amounts of indigenous (black) officers.

Both were first rate divisions.

4e and 5e DIC suffered casualties at the rate of 30-50% during the Somme battles may 20 to june 4.

As with the 25 RTS in Chalessy, and 24 RICMS in Hangest, POWs of he 24 RTS were murdered by the Germans. (These murders were punished by the German army during the war, court martialling perpetrators, so details are well known).

Note - The whites of the RIC were Frenchmen recruited in metropolitan France by the Colonial Department for service overseas, on long term contracts, i.e. they filled the function of marines. 4e DIC was supposed to contain a reserve such regiment, 4e RIC. I don't know why they instead included the veteran 2eme RIC.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[Hans]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

It seems it was the 24th or 16th.

I failed to find any note on the battle itself in any source. But I was able to confirm that the 4e DIC was transferred, by rail and road, to the Amiens sector, arriving around May 20th, latest units arriving may 22nd it seems. It is then engaged in combat until june 4th.

It deploys there covering 20 km of frontage, linking up to its east (direction Abbeville) with 5 DIC and to the west with 7 DINA.

And I reason that if it was there on may 20th-22nd, covering most of the frontage of the bridgehead, and enetered combat immediately, it will reasonably have participated in any attack carried out there.

Furthermore, the only other Colonial forces containing senegalese in the area at the time were 5e DIC, which might have participated, and 7e DIC which could not have, as it is stated to have engaged in battle only in june. Apart from them, the closest Senegalese were fighting around Lyon by may 20th.

All Colonial Divisions (I take the opportunity of correcting myself, I write above there were 3, typo, should say 8) were made up of two senegalese regiments (RTS or RICMS) and one white regiment (RIC). Except 3e DIC which was all-white (1, 21, 23 RIC). Plus a GRDI. They had two artillery regiments, one medium and one heavy, both consisting of black troops (or Malgache).

The 4e DIC, our prime suspect for the Amiens bridgehead counterattacks, included

24e RTS (Lt.Col. Fabre),

16e RTS,

2eme RIC

12e RAC (Col.Arty Rgt)

212e RACL (Col.Heavy Arty Rgt.).

74e GRDI.

Plus divisionals.

The regiments were all to have three battallions, but the 24th had donated its second battallion to the 5e DIC.

The secondary suspect, 5e DIC, consisted of

44e RICM

53e RICM

22e RIC

75e GRDI

2 Artillery regiments (Names unknown)

The RICM were mixed regiments about 80-20 blacks and whites. The 22 RIC was odd insofar that it consisted almost entirely of Catalan troops. And the RICM were odd insofar as containing unusual amounts of indigenous (black) officers.

Both were first rate divisions.

4e and 5e DIC suffered casualties at the rate of 30-50% during the Somme battles may 20 to june 4.

As with the 25 RTS in Chalessy, and 24 RICMS in Hangest, POWs of he 24 RTS were murdered by the Germans. (These murders were punished by the German army during the war, court martialling perpetrators, so details are well known).

Note - The whites of the RIC were Frenchmen recruited in metropolitan France by the Colonial Department for service overseas, on long term contracts, i.e. they filled the function of marines. 4e DIC was supposed to contain a reserve such regiment, 4e RIC. I don't know why they instead included the veteran 2eme RIC.

Cheerio

Dandelion

Another very informative answer, the ony other clue I have is that the Sengalais were supported by Somua tanks. With no more informative information I'll defer to the 24th.

Now to figure out whom the Germans might have been?

[Paco QNS]

Hey, Hans, check this page also -in case you didn´t see it-:

Les Tirailleurs Sénégalais du 24è RTS dans la tourmente de 1940

[Hans]

Originally posted by Paco QNS:

Hey, Hans, check this page also -in case you didn´t see it-:

Les Tirailleurs Sénégalais du 24è RTS dans la tourmente de 1940

Thank you Paco, good info....Paco you reminded me I need to finish up a couple of Spanish Civil War scenarios that have been lanquishing.

[Dandelion]

The SOMUAs must have come from the 3rd Cuirassiers.

I can't find any other active S-35 unit at the relevant dates and (approx) places. All other S-35 units were either destroyed, captured in the Dunkerque pocket or in units forming.

The 3rd was pressed into service by De Gaulle on May 15th, though it was also still in the process of forming. May 15th it had only one (of four) squadrons, with 24 S-35. By May 28 it had an additional two squadrons (Hotchkiss). It fought along the Somme, in pursuit of the task of the 4e DCR, namely reducing the bridgeheads of Abbeville and Amiens.

I see you opened a new thread on the Germans, and that Andreas posted there, so I believe you will be amply aided on that issue.

Cheeri

Dandelion