I got the British Lees wrong !

[Mark Gallear]

Mark Neukom (an ex-scenario designer) has proved me wrong there are Lees in British service in the Desert . I had requested the Lees be totally removed in the next patch .

Mark Neukom emailed me and over 4-5 emails the important points he made were:

Based on photographic evidence, I'd have to point out the I believe pretty strongly that M3 Lees were used by the British in North Africa. The classic study of the Lee in North Africa appears on page 94 of Hunnicutt's "Sherman: A History of the American Medium Tank" (with the caption "Above is a British General Lee which operated alongside the Grant in the desert.") The Lee in the photo is decked out in all manner of desert livery. Page 176 shows Lees mixed in a formation with Sherman IIs at the time of El Alamein. The same 'Classic Lee' photo also appears (page 47) in Ken Jones and Peter

Chamberlain's "Lee & Grant: Classic AFVs No2; Their History and How to Model Them". A Lee is also visible in the photo on page 44

of Grants being delivered to British units on transporters; it can be picked out -- second from left -- by the taller commander's cupola. Peter Chamberlain & Chris Ellis' Profile Publication M3 Medium (Lee/Grant) has a great photo on page 20 captioned "Lees and Shermans in British service in a desert leaguer at the time of the Second Battle of Alamein, October 1942." There are several Lees in this picture along with a number of Sherman IIs, all of which sportthe 'mechanized caravan' style of stowage common to Eighth Army vehicles in the desert. A clearer version of this same photo is on page 11 of "The Lee/Grant Tanks in British Service", by Bryan Perrett; the charcoal grey camouflage swaths can be seen on the Lee nearest the photographer. This book also has a grainy shot of Lees and Grant in column formation on page 13. [A close examination of all of these books will also show quite a number of Grants with .30 cal Browning AA machine guns mounted, as well.]

He also comes up with many more pieces of evidence!

In ASL, I believe that Bob MacNamara had the Lees entering Desert Service later than the Grants; the above tends to support that, indicating a later introduction of August-September 1942. Mr. Platz does not mention Lees with the other British armoured brigades in the desert for that period; I don't know if that is because the weren't there, or if there is no differentiation between them in the available material.

As an aside, there continues to be much confusion amongst people regarding the differences between the two tanks. Indeed, even the official history of the U.S. 1st Armored Division refers to its M3 Medium Tanks as 'Grants'!

I also recall reading that M3 Lee crews tended to be reduced from 7 to 6 men after the initial combat actions, when units did away with the radio operator and handed his duties to the driver instead. I cannot for the life of me recall where I ran across that tidbit; I'm sure its out there somewhere.

I was, of course, quite disappointed that the Funklenk units weren't included in CMBB (or CMAK, for that matter) -- which is too bad, since they would probably be very easy to represent in Combat Mission, given that it is so LOS-based in its execution.

Post on the forum for the Funklenk what every they are!

He also spotted a photograph of a Churchill I in Italy so not all were converted to Churchill I or II CS standard.

So anyway, the reason that I'm approaching you about the question of Lees in the Western Desert is that it appears that you are looked upon as somewhat of an expert. Therefore, I think that it is important that you lead the way in pointing out that the current OB allowing Lees in North Africa is correct. Push comes to shove, the Lee/Grant series was my favorite tank of the Second World War, so I have a sentimental connection to the matter.

The date of September - (some arriving in August) are the Shermans sent for the battle of El Alamein on Roosevelt's orders and released by General Marshall from US troops in training. Hunnicutt says they were Shermans and 100 M7 105mm guns but my guess is they included these Lees and probably not that many. The Shermans and the rest of this shipment were first used in the battle in October after conversion to desert conditions. As you say some British sources say Lee when they mean Grant and I always put their mention down to that factor.

So BFC got it right after all – well no :eek: !

Rarity for October 1942 shows Lees on zero rarity and Grants on 30% level. The Grant is no longer as common as it was as Shermans now most numerous tank in British arsenal and figures for Grant must included the Lees. However probably still on the zero rarity factor, increasing after the battle as tank slowly replaced over time. Be replaced at end of Tunisian campaign. Lees are probably much rarer than the 30% level but without further information it would be better just to swap them!

Photos show mixed troops of Grants and Lees, my conclusion for this is that the Lees are making up losses in troops rather than forming new units. For CM hard to recreate!

Lees start same time as Grant and should be October.

Both British Lee and Grant show 7 crewman as Mark Neuman points out the Grants crew were reduced to 6 men The Lee turret was to small too accommodate the tank radio, which was located in hull. British practise was for the loader to operate the radio.

Photos show the .30 cal MG in the top turret removed and put on an AA mount. Some Grants also have this AA mounting but most do not.

Add .30 AA mounting to Lee.

[ March 07, 2004, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[MikeyD]

An informative post. Thanks.

Reminds me when CMBB first came out there was a great pile of 'accepted wisdom' on the Eastern Front that had to get hashed-out (remember the great 45mm cannister round debate?). Eventually we discovered that BFC was on the right side of most of the arguments most of the time. It looks like CMAK has its own share of outstanding issues to hash-out, but history's taught me to put my money on BFC ...most of the time.

[PS]

One poss source of error was the way the British named the models:

Grant I - M3 with British turret

Grant II - M3A5 with Lee turret

Lee I - M3

Lee II - M3A1

Lee III - M3A2

Lee IV - M3A3 Petrol

Lee V - M3A3 Diesel

Lee VI - M3A4

Don't know the total mumber of GrantIs produced but 170 "Grants" were present at El Alamein. Has anyone got a figure and how many Lees were sent to N Africa.

[Kingfish]

This site shows a total of 600 M3s (does not differentiate between Grants or Lees) being delivered by the start of El Alamein.

[ March 12, 2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Kingfish ]

[Mark Gallear]

I do not think the Grant II is the explanation - although I suspect it was more commonly referred to as the Lee. It just that the term was used interchangeably.

According to Hunnicutt the UK was assigned:

M3 2,653

M3A3 49

M3A5 185

(Bare in mind that many were sent to the Far-East and Australia.)

In the figures, for the Middle East that we talking about I think they are all in the M3 with Grant and a few Lee versions.

The ammo for the 75mm is very interesting with scrounged French fuses for the HE rounds - as the US fuses were not designed for the flat trajectories used with tank guns so didn't explode.

The AP M72 monobloc round was only meant as an interim round and broke up when it hit German face-hardened armour over 500 yards. The APC M61 was not yet available and the British found that amongst the 50,000 tons off German ordnance captured after the relief of Tobruk were explosive loaded APCBC rounds for the Panzers IV's 7.5cm Kampfwagenkanone (KwK)L/24. A Major Northy, found that if the rotating band was modified it could be fired from M3's 75. The rounds were successfully assembled into US cases. Tests done in Cairo showed that the modified German round and M61 both penetrated the front of the Panzer III at 1000 yards. But the German explosive loaded round exploded in the tank, which would result in the stowed ammunition being set off.

Some 15,000 rounds and another 2000 HE and smoke were converted. About 6000 rounds were captured by the Germans at Capuzzo during the retreat to Alamein and captured back in November!

Don't know if any of this is modelled. Does partly explain the long training period of some months before it went into action. That and improvising a gun ranging site for the 75mm!

Source Hunnicutt - Sherman

[ March 12, 2004, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]