Bigduke6 Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Hi there panzer fans! I'm trying to build an OB for a late-war Wehrmacht (NOT S.S.!) German armor force March 1945, and I'm having trouble figuring out the following: What was the policy as the war wound down on using assault guns to equip the panzer regiments of the panzer divisions? Types, percentages, ratios to the turreted tanks, which crews got what, etc.? If it helps, I am particularly interested in these formations: Fuerherbegleit Division, Fuerher Panzer Grenadier Division, 8th Panzer Division, 17th Panzer Division, and 103rd Panzer Brigade. This is the panzer regiment I'm talking about, not the "panzerjaeger" abteilungen. (Although actually it's pretty much a mystery to me when the panzerjaeger abteilungen received StuGs, and when PzIVs etc.) I've ransacked the usual web sites (Axis History, Feldgrau, etc.) and although it's easy enough to figure out the unit organization, vehicle type is extremely difficult. The mix of assault guns to turreted vehicles is pretty much a big empty space. So can any of you smart people help me out, either with some links or even better a short essay on how the Werhmacht divied out assault gunss when they were running short on turreted vehicles? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Formation of Late war panzer units. Panzer Brigade 103 On the 24th January 1945 Stab Panzer Brigade 103 was assigned command over a panzerkampfgruppe consisting of a panzer regiment stab with the: II/Panzer Regiment 9, I (Panther) Abteilung Panzer Regt 29, and the I (Panther) Abteilung Panzer Regt 39. II/Panzer Regt 9 was ordered on the 20th January 1945 to be employed outwith it’s parent division. It was originally to be outfitted with two companies each with 13 Pz IV/70 and three Pz IV radio command tanks. This next bit I’m not so clear about but it looks like they received 14 PzIV/70(V) (on the 22 Jan 1945) and 14 PzIV (on the 19th Jan 1945). Orders were cut on the 21 January 1945 to prepare the I Abteilung Panzer Regt 29 for combat with one company of 14 Jagdpanthers and one company of 14 PzIV/70 (A). It looks like they received their vehicles on the 22 – 24th January 1945. I Abteilung Panzer Regt 39 was ordered to be ready for action by 22 January 1945 and it’s OOB was three Panthers for the Abteilung stab and 14 Panthers in each of three companies for a total of 45 Panthers. It received 46 Panthers between 16 – 22 January 1945. Panzer Brigade 103 was sent to Heeresgruppe Mitte in Mid January 1945. By 3rd February it had knocked out 45 enemy tanks, and destroyed or captured 65 AT guns. They had lost 35 Panthers as total write-offs, with an additional 15 Panthers surrounded in Steinau. It was disbanded on 5th March 1945. Fuehrer – Begleit Division Formed 18 January 1945 by expanding the Fuehrer – Begleit Brigade. 25 January 1945 the Stab Panzer Regiment 102 was raised with the II/Panzer Regiment “Grossdeutschland” reassigned as the II/Panzer Regiment 102 On the 16 Feb 1945 orders were issued to form Panzer Regiment 102 with the I Abteilung consisting of two panther companies and two Panzer IV companies each with 14 panzers. Panzer Jaeger Abteilung 673 was assigned to the panzer regiment in place of a second panzer Abteilung. From what I can make out it actually ended up with 15 Panzer IVs; 23 PzIV/70 (A) and 30 Panthers. On the 2 March 1945 the II Abteilung/Panzer Regiment “Grossdeutschland” was renamed II Abteilung/Fuehrer Panzer Regiment 1. Fuehrer – Grenadier Division Was formed from an expanded Fuehrer – Grenadier Brigade. It ended up with 26 Panthers, 10 PzIV/70(V) and two FlakpanzerIV (37). It looks like it received another 10 panzers on the 1 Feb. The whole lot was organised into four companies and an HQ platoon. 8th Panzer Division Sorry couldn’t find any info about this unit for this period. 17th Panzer Division Looks like this was formed into a kampfgruppe around the 7 – 9 Feb 1945 and was based around II/Panzer Regiment 39. It had 16 Panzer IVs, 28PzIV/70(V) organised into three companies. Hope this is off use Bigduke. Cheers fur noo George Mc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted November 4, 2006 Author Share Posted November 4, 2006 George, That's outstanding info! I really appreciate it. I've been guessing so far, and looking at what you have written it looks like I had the numbers right but the vehicle mix W-A-Y off (not enough JpzIV, basically). A few questions: 1. Source? (Not that I doubt it, just want to give credit where credit is due.) 2. Is this vehicles on the books, or actual runners? (I strongly suspect the former.) What I'm interested in is runners, so if you have any hints on what the maintenance situation was for these formations, collectively or individually, that would be greatly appreciated. If you don't have it, well, I asked. 3. In my digging about on the 103rd, I've seen that as of 5 March the remains of the brigade got renamed into the panzer regiment for Moenchburg (spelling?) Panzer Division, and further that Division contained among other things 10 x Tigers and 23 x Marders by the beginning of April. Just for the sake of thoroughness, have you seen anything on when the Moenchburg received the reinforcements, particularly the Tigers? Before or after March 1 is the key date. Final note, in my puttering around the Lexicon-der-Wehrmacht it seems 673 S.Panzerjaeger never received vehicles, just trivia. Thanks again for the come-back, it really helped. Originally posted by George Mc: Formation of Late war panzer units. Panzer Brigade 103 On the 24th January 1945 Stab Panzer Brigade 103 was assigned command over a panzerkampfgruppe consisting of a panzer regiment stab with the: II/Panzer Regiment 9, I (Panther) Abteilung Panzer Regt 29, and the I (Panther) Abteilung Panzer Regt 39. II/Panzer Regt 9 was ordered on the 20th January 1945 to be employed outwith it’s parent division. It was originally to be outfitted with two companies each with 13 Pz IV/70 and three Pz IV radio command tanks. This next bit I’m not so clear about but it looks like they received 14 PzIV/70(V) (on the 22 Jan 1945) and 14 PzIV (on the 19th Jan 1945). Orders were cut on the 21 January 1945 to prepare the I Abteilung Panzer Regt 29 for combat with one company of 14 Jagdpanthers and one company of 14 PzIV/70 (A). It looks like they received their vehicles on the 22 – 24th January 1945. I Abteilung Panzer Regt 39 was ordered to be ready for action by 22 January 1945 and it’s OOB was three Panthers for the Abteilung stab and 14 Panthers in each of three companies for a total of 45 Panthers. It received 46 Panthers between 16 – 22 January 1945. Panzer Brigade 103 was sent to Heeresgruppe Mitte in Mid January 1945. By 3rd February it had knocked out 45 enemy tanks, and destroyed or captured 65 AT guns. They had lost 35 Panthers as total write-offs, with an additional 15 Panthers surrounded in Steinau. It was disbanded on 5th March 1945. Fuehrer – Begleit Division Formed 18 January 1945 by expanding the Fuehrer – Begleit Brigade. 25 January 1945 the Stab Panzer Regiment 102 was raised with the II/Panzer Regiment “Grossdeutschland” reassigned as the II/Panzer Regiment 102 On the 16 Feb 1945 orders were issued to form Panzer Regiment 102 with the I Abteilung consisting of two panther companies and two Panzer IV companies each with 14 panzers. Panzer Jaeger Abteilung 673 was assigned to the panzer regiment in place of a second panzer Abteilung. From what I can make out it actually ended up with 15 Panzer IVs; 23 PzIV/70 (A) and 30 Panthers. On the 2 March 1945 the II Abteilung/Panzer Regiment “Grossdeutschland” was renamed II Abteilung/Fuehrer Panzer Regiment 1. Fuehrer – Grenadier Division Was formed from an expanded Fuehrer – Grenadier Brigade. It ended up with 26 Panthers, 10 PzIV/70(V) and two FlakpanzerIV (37). It looks like it received another 10 panzers on the 1 Feb. The whole lot was organised into four companies and an HQ platoon. 8th Panzer Division Sorry couldn’t find any info about this unit for this period. 17th Panzer Division Looks like this was formed into a kampfgruppe around the 7 – 9 Feb 1945 and was based around II/Panzer Regiment 39. It had 16 Panzer IVs, 28PzIV/70(V) organised into three companies. Hope this is off use Bigduke. Cheers fur noo George Mc [ November 04, 2006, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Bigduke6 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Müncheberg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Panzer_Division_Muncheberg All the best Andreas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Hi Bigduke Yeah sorry my bad... The source is Jentz Panzertruppen Vol 2. Re runners no clear steer on that. My own opinion based on stuff I've read would be pretty good % to start then very quickly reducing as combat is involved. I mind reading somewhere that keeping 40 - 50% going during combat operations was good, off course at this stage in the war that could be even less with spares etc being in short supply, pulling back and leaving non runners etc. Someone else might have a better idea based on fact rather a surmise. Jentz has figures for runners (though not sure whether units were in combat at that time)for the 15th March: Begleit Div 20 Stug; 7 PzIV; 12 PzIV/70; 2 Flakpanzer; 10 Panthers 8th Pz Div 11 PzIV; 6 PzIV/70; 9 Panthers 17th Pz Div 10 PzIV; 18 PzIV/70; 3 Flakpanzer Muencheberg 4 Stug; 3 PzIV; 1 PzIV/70; 10 Panthers; 8 Tigers (no idea whether Mk I or II). Note: It was not formed till 5th March. Cheers fur noo George Mc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted November 5, 2006 Author Share Posted November 5, 2006 George, Gottit, thanks. That's more helpful than you think, I have overall strengths, what I am trying to do is translate that into how many of what vehicle at a particular date. The numbers make sense, because the formations I'm curious about got involved in a really whomping bit armor fight right about the beginning of March, in lower Silesia. The battle is pretty obscure because the Balaton offensive took place at approximately the same time, but for several days there it was a whole lot of armored vehicles packed into a small area. Andreas, Umlaut grog! But thanks for that, it helped too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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