How to attack like a Soviet Rifle Corps in 1944

[Silvio Manuel]

BUMP

for Shosties4th

[Andreas]

Woohay! Blast from the past. Still my favourite thread!

Managed to repair one of the broken links. I'll do the other ones tonight.

[ May 21, 2003, 04:59 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

[Shosties]

Thanks. I vaugely remember this one from when Andreas started it. It deserves being crossposted over to the CMBB topic area.

Having it stated as susinctly as possible for how this translates into "historically-informed" unit purchasing for CM QBs and scenarios and then fighting them would be nice, ala JasonC's recommendations for the Germans and Americans and JonS' for the Commonwealth in CMBO.

[Andreas]

Bump

[Tank Ace]

And who wants to attack like the damn bolsheviks?

[Andreas]

Thanks for that most intelligent, deep, and well thought-through contribution.

[Tank Ace]

no problem

[Dandelion]

Puzzles me why Admin hasn't moved this thread to the CMBB forum, where it would certainly have the highest of re-use values. At least IMHO.

Are there any equivalent poolings of knowledge on Western Front operations, with a scenario designer perspective, anyone?

Regards

Dandelion

[Shosties]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Are there any equivalent poolings of knowledge on Western Front operations, with a scenario designer perspective, anyone?

Try this. Less operational history, but lots of CM level stuff.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Dandelion:

Puzzles me why Admin hasn't moved this thread to the CMBB forum, where it would certainly have the highest of re-use values. At least IMHO.

Regards

Dandelion

Hehe - got it moved through direct appeal to Martin (thanks!), and sneakily got Dandelion to post in the CMBB forum. Muhahahahahaha

[DavidFields]

Originally posted by Andreas:

[QB]

Strength return from 1st August 1944 (numbers in brackets are TO&E)

</font>

• Armour
  Panzer III 5 (10)</font>
• Panzer IV 36 (81)</font>
• Panzer V Panther 0 (79)</font>
• SPW, AC, FOO Tanks 75 (264)</font>
• SP AT 17 (31)
  Artillery</font>
• Hummel 7 (8)</font>
• Wespe 16 (16)</font>
• towed 41 (43)</font>
• towed heavy AT 41 (71)</font>
• MG 690 (1,104)
  
  Vehicles</font>
• Trucks 697 (1,637)</font>
• small vehicles 240 (677)</font>

I am interested that, in 1944, a German unit would have MkIV tanks, and no MkV. By that time, I would have thought that everything Soviet could kill a MkIV tank, and that no more would be around. Is this just the case of differences in production numbers and how they were used?

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Rankorian:

I am interested that, in 1944, a German unit would have MkIV tanks, and no MkV. By that time, I would have thought that everything Soviet could kill a MkIV tank, and that no more would be around. Is this just the case of differences in production numbers and how they were used?

Numbers more or less like this were common throughout the army. Pz IVs were cheaper to produce than Pz Vs and anyway, shutting down the production line for them to retool would have interrupted production at a time when they couldn't afford it. It's worth remembering that the Pz IV, while obsolescent, was not useless. Its situation was somewhat similar to the Sherman, which although not an Übertank did most of what was required of it.

Michael

[JonS]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mud:

CMBB is a tactical wargame. It deals with small actions, mostly. Even if one side largely had the upper hand at any given time, it doesn't mean it had it /everywhere/ and /everywhen/ (e.g. every 0.5-1 hour or so that might be turned into a CMBB battle).

Indeed. Looking at my first post from the scenario designer's PoV, there is an obvious instance that could become a CMBB scenario. The right wing of 61st GRD that got stuck in front of the strongpoint Ploptuschbej. Obviously the German/Romanian occupants of that strongpoint failed to get the message and kept resisting the juggernaut to a degree that necessitated readjusting plans on the Soviet side. Sounds like a CMBB operation in waiting to me. </font>

[Andreas]

Jon, go away, you should have enough to play with. Thanks for the report on FD Kutuzov, BTW.

re: why no Panthers?

ISTR (away from my books) that 13.PD had just come from some horrific battle in the spring, and was being rebuilt. It was not one of the high priority panzer divisions, and had been in constant action before, IIRC, which means it was difficult to withdraw one Abteilung for retraining into the Reich earlier.

It is possible that at this stage one Abteilung was back in the Reich switching. The low total number of MBTs would indicate that. I will check when I am back in London.

[JasonC]

I am surprised that no one else has addressed the Pz IV comments, except to say they are cheaper. Um, just how spoiled are you German CM players getting?

In 1944, a Pz IV has -

(1) a gun that will kill any Russian AFV. Even a JS-2 with a turret hit partial penetration possible out to 1000m. All the standard Russian types can be killed with a hit on any plate from any angle. Russians would kill for any AFV with a gun this good, against their possible opponents.

(2) in a medium speed, 3 man turret, with cupola, a radio, and better than average optics. Good muzzle velocity for accuracy. 2 MGs with plenty of ammo. Decent speed and ground pressure. Useful HE load and charge. All equal or superior features to what the Russians put up with for most of the war.

(3) armor that (with skirts) stops all standard Russian infantry AT, bounces 45mm (except flat side shots are decent ranges), and bounces the most common Russian round, 76mm, from the front hull. This is protection as good as the T-34 has in 1942.

But somebody thinks it should be considered "obsolete" in 1944. Um, on the basis of what standard, exactly? Unless no portion of the front armor can be penetrated by any weapon the enemy possesses, it is supposedly useless junk?

On that standard, name a tank any of the allies have, ever, that isn't supposedly "junk". The KV in 1941 is about all you'd find, better in relative performance.

Methinks some German tank drivers are getting spoiled rotten playing with rare Tigers or top of the line Panthers. Remember, 2/3rds of the German AFV fleet for the whole war were models based on the Pz III or Pz IV chassis. If you think Pz IVs suck, play the allies for a change.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by JasonC:

But somebody thinks it should be considered "obsolete" in 1944.

I guess you mean me, but the actual word I used was 'obsolescent'. There is a difference. I also pointed out that it did pretty much what was demanded of it. If you find that damning with faint praise, so be it. But I was aiming a bit higher than that.

Michael

[JasonC]

The fellow before you said "I would have thought that everything Soviet could kill a MkIV tank, and that no more would be around." Which is a ridiculously high standard, by which no allied tank would exist past a handful of KV-1s in 1941. Proof if it were needed that German CM tank drivers are spoiled rotten (by unkillable StuGs in 1942, unkillable Tigers in 1943, dominant Panthers in 1944, etc), and that some at least have a completely unrealistic picture of the armor war in the east.

[Michael Emrys]

Oh, okay. Don't suppose I'll argue with that.

But I'll bet that gamey bastards that they were, the Germans would have been happy to have lots and lots of Panthers and Tigers, all other things being equal.

Michael

[ July 26, 2003, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[manchildstein (ii)]

if memory serves, while the panther and pziv were produced in relatively equal numbers in the 1944 period, the majority of panthers were sent to the west.

it may have been in zaloga's 'operation bagration' book where i read this...

edit: yes i took a look and in the zaloga book it mentioned that from nov of '43 the majority of panthers were sent west.

[ July 26, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: manchildstein II ]

[Andreas]

Re: Panthers - after a bit of digging, Jentz and the divisional history have thrown up the following.

13. PD's PR4 had three Abteilungen in 1942/3 during the push to the Caucasus. The division was then almost destroyed during the retreat into the Kuban bridgehead, and was reformed on the Krim. I./PR4 was taken away, to be converted to sPzAbt.507 in October 1943. III./PR4 was by this time also away, then converting to Panthers in France, and renamed I./PR4. This formation never returned to PR4. So, at the time of Iassy, PR4 would have had one Abteilung only, known as Panzerabteilung Gehrig. 13.PD was not unusual in having only one Abteilung - 12.PD suffered a similar fate.