Firepower question

[SebastienL]

Ok , I'm just playing against an entrenched German company of infantry . Let's say late '41 ( 1 or 2 AT guns tacitly included but I'm not sure of ... ) . Open space . No maneuver possibility ., we start at 800 meters from the flag . A couple of rocky spots but nothing else ( flat map ) . Playing against the AI , what would be the minimal HE to buy to win ( against the AI ). Thank you for your answers .

edit : German regular , no particular bonuses .

[ April 30, 2008, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: SebastienL ]

[JasonC]

Not too clear, but in those conditions armor works better than infantry. Some mortars to neutralize defending guns will help. T-34s get 60-65 HE apiece, and if you knew they'd all live to deliver it, a single platoon of them would be enough, used correctly. (30-33 target*minutes hit by 76mm, spend 2 per unit, use MGs to maintain pins beyond that). A pair of SU-122s firing one minute each at a given target might also do it, again, assuming they live to deliver their whole load. In practice you may lose some to defending ATGs.

On map guns can help, but will need something else to get close enough to spot HMGs, and 800 meters is quite long range to hit point targets like trenches with them. 82mm mortars are much more effective at more like 300-400 meters than at 800m, and against woods targets than trenches.

As for getting close enough for spots, advance drills and outlasting enemy ammo might do some of it with infantry, particularly vs. the AI. One big smoke mission might also help, to get from 400 meters or so, pinned by MGs, to 150 or so, close enough for spots. But it is vastly easier to drive a tank that close.

Just dropping indirect, FO delivered HE will not help much. It is perfectly effective against infantry in woods foxholes or wood buildings or rough or scattered trees, but much less effective against trenches. Not enough of the shells will land within the narrow trench icon itself. Direct fire HE is much better at that specific task, and is best delivered from 500 meters or less. Either by guns that can set up that close, or by tanks.

All that said, I've successfully attack an *defending* AI German infantry defense at the 400 point attack odds level, with a single infantry company and overwatch of 1 76mm gun, 1 82mm mortar, and 2 Maxim MGs, and a 120mm mortar FO. But they weren't in *trenches* - had like 1, most were in a few patches of rough, some in a couple wood buildings - overall 25% cover not 10%.

I've successfully attacked a full company defense with MGs and guns in trenches, most infantry in tree foxholes, a few in trenches too, using either (1) pure infantry force type with 2 76mm guns, 1 82mm and 2 50mm mortars, 1 120mm and 3 122mm FOs, or with (2) combined arms using 3 T-34s in place of the on-map guns and 2 of the 122mm FOs, or with (3) mech forces using 7 T-34s and a single 120mm FO. All with an infantry company too. Those are the 200 series in my Russian training scenario "course".

YMMV, you describe less cover than my infantry had and farther to go.

I'll also point out that the AI can be beaten with specific stupid AI tricks, given either forward flag or unlimited time on the clock. In the first case you induce a counterattackl and kill the AI as it leaves its defenses.

In the second, you give it things to shoot at, too far for it to permanently kill them, and suck its MG ammo dry, before approaching to squad infantry range. This can be repeated as needed if you have truly unlimited time. The AI doesn't know to exercise fire discipline in that case. Not enough to win outright on its own, but is enough to get any amount of infantry through the long range, MG pinning fire, zone.

But those are exploiting stupid AI tricks rather than sufficient combined arms to actually do the job, legitimately.

[SebastienL]

JasonC ,

Thank you very much for your superb answer

First sorry for the lack of details in the German forces description but I wanted some kind of FOW and not just attacking knowing exactly (down to the single unit) the ennemy forces .

So far my experience is that I run out of ammo too quickly and apparently relied a bit too much on infantry.

A couple of additional questions if you don't mind...

Do you mean that the main task of the attacking infantry is to get full ID targets ?

Also what about area firing the trenches ? Is that a waste of ammo ?

Also apart from accuracy , is there a blast difference if a HE round is fired closer to the target ?

I like the Su-122 as well but I'm afraid I can't purchase it in late 41'.

Thanks again for your time , I will download and play your scenario training .

[Der Alte Fritz]

With regard to FO artillery and HE. If you have a line of 4 trenches holding a German platoon and fire with 5 x FO worth of 76mm guns at 40m intervals or 4 x FO worth of 122mm howitzers at 50mm or 3 x FO 152mm at 60m interval, you will get the following result. You will pin about half the units at any one time and an HMG about a third of the time. You will kill/rout one section and damage two others - ie you will kill about 25% of the force (152mm is more destructive than this but more variable in result.) So a Russian company advancing from 800m would need to cover the 400m by move and hide commands and then the artillery opening fire would allow it to cover down to 150m with some difficulty. From there the superior rifle fire of the Russians would tell and they should overwhelm the defenders. But it would be hard going to cover from 400m to 150m and if you are not quick enough your artillery runs out of ammo. If there is any cover the best way is to sneak forward!

You can have look at Russian Offensive 1 at the Scenario Depot to see what I mean.

cheers

[JasonC]

"I run out of ammo too quickly"

Using the wrong weapon for the target type, too early especially, will do that. No force can afford to pull triggers continually through a whole 30 minute fight. Squads have 6-8 minutes of fire, for example.

The relevant issue therefore is, how much of your ammo have you expended, to *permanently destroy* what portion of his force? It isn't ammo vs. time or ammo vs. distance that matters. It is ammo vs. enemy.

If you spend half your ammo to kill 10% of the enemy, you run out with the defense intact. If you spend a quarter of your ammo to kill half the enemy, he is toast.

This puts quite strict limits on the sort of shooting you can afford to engage in. In particular, continual fire by inappopriate weapons, just trying to keep the enemy reply fire light to let your men move e.g., will not work.

"apparently relied a bit too much on infantry."

Squad infantry can afford to fire at exposed enemies in open ground, out to about 250 meters. Beyond that, it will tickle them only, and they will rally, and the ammo will not. That is for defenders. For attackers, you can't afford to fire most of your ammo into cover from ranges even that long. A little maybe, to deal with a few obnoxious defenders slowing you down. The bulk of the attacking infantry firepower needs to be delivered at much closer ranges, if you expect to achieve a decision by infantry firepower.

In practice that limits a full reliance on infantry firepower as your main weapon, to cases when there is plenty of cover for the approach, or you can get into decent cover just shy of the defenders, or the defenders don't have great cover themselves. With the first the most common case.

In all other cases, attackers rely on *overwatch* weapons, and they rely on them especially in the longer range and earlier portions of the fighting. With infantry *absorbing* enemy firepower, providing a threat that makes the enemy reveal himself, getting spots etc. Yes, it can also be a "finisher", killing a suppressed enemy already deprived of heavy hitters, by moving right on top of them. But that is late in the day and depends on other weapons having already decided the main issue.

Overwatch comes in 3 basic types. (1) Infantry heavy weapons, like HMG teams and mortars, modestly helped by snipers and ATRs and such. (2) off board artillery FOs, aka "indirect HE". And (3) tanks and onboard guns, which also fight the ranged armor war pretty much by themselves, and are also the "direct HE". Each is typically stronger than the previous, in that order.

Mortars are best hitting enemy guns, and decent at silencing a few machineguns that otherwise delay your infantry. The problem with the former is getting them to open fire and reveal themselves, without losing too much in the process. The problem with the latter is they are stealthy - you get only a sound contact even after they are firing, until someone gets within 200-250 meters.

Overwatch MGs typically lack the firepower to break anything in cover, on their own. But they have good "ammo depth" - they can keep up a low level of fire for long periods. They can stop rapid infantry movement in the open. But against men in good cover, they just don't have the oomph to push them to pinned or broken. What they *can* do for the attacker, is *maintain pins*, achieved by other weapons.

What do I mean? Well, all infantry MG and gun crews rally continually. If you push them to "shaken", but then leave them alone, they will be "OK" in less than one minute. If you push them to "pinned" it might take 1-3 minutes, but they will be back in action soon - *if* left unmolested to rally.

Well, attackers can't afford that. It means that target just "absorbed" a whole boatload of ammo, and 5 minutes later it is as though it never happened. Maybe 1-2 men missing, but the crew served weapon still in action, or the squad still serving its LMG and having most of its other firepower, too.

Put a little fire on them 6 times a minute, though, *after* they are already pinned, and the extra suppression will match their "rate of rally" - and they stay pinned. Then the ammo spent to pin them wasn't wasted. Similarly, if a shot up squad gets up and runs (routed), great. Maybe leave it for a turn. But then shoot it again so it keeps right on running, clear off the map. But use for it, something with lots of ammo and not much better to do - like a single HMG.

Next FOs. FOs work against 25% cover and full platoon sized targets. They can also work against tree cover, thanks to occasional airbursts. The more men bunched under the barrage footprint the better, and the higher the caliber the better. Number of rounds is secondary, and response time unimportant. The best stuff is 150mm and up, with 105mm and up stuff just so-so. Smaller stuff, practically useless for attackers.

Another key to FOs is to recognize that men will fully recover from the barrage within 5 minutes, as much as they are going to. Firing very early may seem smart because it will prevent the men hit from ever shooting at yours. But actually, you are also giving the defenders maximum rally time.

The best time to hit with the FOs is just before your squad infantry gets to ranges it can engage from. A little earlier will suppress the defense and help you get into position. A little later and you may actually be able to follow up the barrage with a charge into still broken men. But either is way better than a turn 1 barrage.

The heaviest hitters in the overwatch group at the tanks and on map guns. They have a prior mission - hurt their opposite number in the enemy force. But the ones with big HE ammo loads can fire at infantry before that all plays out. And whatever survives the ranged "heavy wood" exchange of the armor war, can typical live to deliver all it has left. (Sometimes the guns get KOed by enemy mortars etc).

The rule of thumb there is that a minute of direct fire, big enough HE - anything 75mm and up, also the better AA guns - will pin or break the target. This is remarkably insensitive to cover, and that is what makes big HE your main answer to really good cover. It can be somewhat sensitive to accuracy issues if the range is long enough and the cover good, however. You also have to watch out for some ridgeline crest effects that can "intercept" most of your shots.

But the way to think about it is "HE-minutes of fire", and then shift the target each minute, with each heavy hitter. The only exception is a really dangerous gun, which you might hit harder until it is abandoned. Even that, only if you are talking about saving your tanks or a 150mm sIG nuking all your infantry. Not for a single run of the mill infantry gun or light PAK or FLAK.

One of the biggest mistakes new players make, besides firing with the infantry too soon and running dry, is to leave their HE heavy hitters on the same target turn after turn. They are already pinned, maybe panicking. You are deep into overkill and don't realize it. You can easily cut the number of defenders the same tank or gun can handle, by a factor of 2-3, making that mistake. Instead, put a MG on the old target and switch the tank to a new one. If you don't have other good targets, have a tank keep up the fire using the coaxial MG, only.

"what about area firing the trenches ?"

Usually area fire is a waste, and one you can't afford. There are some exceptions, though. Some tanks have really big loads (a T-34 with 65 HE for example). And sometimes, you need to remember the tank isn't likely to live to deliver its whole load, if you hold fire early. I mean, in a typical attack maybe you lose a third to half your armor, in tank duels or to hidden guns, right? Well, fire off some of the ammo of those tanks before you lose them, then.

Other exceptions are low rate of fire, really big guns. A sIG might hold fire because it fears loss to enemy mortars or guns, or is waiting for a perfect ambush. But once it opens fire, fire it every turn. The thing has 50 shells and fires 2 per minute, it isn't going to run out.

Another exception is keeping a gun or MG suppressed after you "lose" it because the crew pinned (target becomes a flag marker). You don't want to let them rally. At least an MG should stay "on them", even if it is area fire. A dangerous gun, a mortar might keep area firing to KO it.

But don't plaster every trench without seeing anyone in them, just because you fear someone is there and want to "be sure". Remember the overall relationship you are managing. You need to kill defenders, in percent they started with terms, at least as fast as you spend your ammo, in percent you started with terms.

Notice this also means you can "gain" on the enemy just by exercising strictly fire discipline than he is showing, if his fire isn't too withering. Attacking infantry often beats defending, simply by having all their shots left at 125 meters range, while the defenders are already half-dry by then. If he is shooting but your men aren't dying very much, call that pure gain.

It isn't a race to run through your ammo faster. You really can't shoot more by shooting sooner. Firing opportunities aren't scarce, and anybody that lives is going to deliver their shots, if you need them to win. The loser will be out men and ammo, the attacker basically out of ammo by the very end, but with more than half his men left. Make up your mind right at the start that you are running out of ammo *last*, and set your covered arcs and make your shooting decisions with that always in mind.

"apart from accuracy, is there a blast difference if a HE round is fired closer to the target?"

Unclear. No. The effect of range on HE effectiveness is real, but occurs through accuracy. From closer in, more of the shots will land closer to the target, and how far away a round lands has a big impact on how much it hurts. Especially for the better sorts of cover. E.g. a round that hits a building the defender is in, will do yards more than one that lands outside. Same with whether a round hits the trench icon, or outside of it.

An on map mortar firing from 800 yards away will be lucky to put one round in six right smack on the target. At 400 yards it will put one in three there, and at 200 yards one in two. Low velocity guns also get much less accurate at long range. The infantry gun types at 800 to 1000 yards, for example. Most guns, anything inside 500 yards is fine.

Tanks also increase their firepower when they close by the MGs working better - much more effective at 200 meters than 600, better still at 100 meters. And by getting full spots instead of leaving sound contacts. The downside, of course, is they expose themselves more to enemy AT weapons, especially their flanks, to hidden guns. So closing is an optional aggressive thing to do with tanks. It is often smart to close with just 1 to get spots and lure out more enemies, without risking the rest.

As for big Russian direct fire HE in 1941, they have it, in the form of the KV-2. But even just KV-1s, or T-34s, are pretty "ubertank" for that era, and the T-34s will have better rariety and mobility. Just avoid the dinky lights - those die too easily, and 45mm HE is completely insufficient against men in cover.

I hope this helps.

[dieseltaylor]

Nice post.

Putting into words and actuality vague suspicions I have harboured. Incidentally my favoured approach in games is to have random casualties to make everything a little more foggy and less calculable.

In situations you have outlined if you cannot guarantee the value of enemy infantry inside the trenches is there a slight danger of spending more than their worth to take them?

Secondly, in general, do random casualties make it more difficult to play.

[SebastienL]

Der Alte Fritz

,

Thanks a lot for your input and those accurate numbers you gave . So arty is not inefficient but that would seem to a be very expansive way to destroy about a single platoon of infantry , wouldn't it ?

Jasonc ,

let me start by the end ..

"I hope this helps " , well if this doesn't then I'm hopeless anyway .lol

"It isn't ammo vs. time or ammo vs. distance that matters. It is ammo vs. enemy"

I think I should read that sentence outloud a dozen times before I start every Cm game ...

About overkilling though .... I guess a good way to avoid that is to use cover arcs right ? But isn't there a risk that my units won't react to a new threat ( an AT gun suddenly popping out for instance ) ?

In your first russian scenario 200 , for instance , the Pak that suddenly starts to shoot is an enormous threat especially because the russians have only 3 tanks and they can't hide nowhere , so a little bit of massive firepower can' be a waste of ammo but I can't select the level of reaction by type of threat ( compared to say a single ATR for instance ) , or am I missing something ?

( I know you've already answered that in your first reply but I wonder how you deal with this "dilemma" )

"Direct fire HE is much better at that specific task, and is best delivered from 500 meters or less"

OK .In case the enemy has not yet revealed his AT guns , should my tanks remain at a distance at which the chance of getting hit is low or on the contray try to close in and be more accurate to support my infantry ?

"Another exception is keeping a gun or MG suppressed after you "lose" it because the crew pinned (target becomes a flag marker)"

Thanks for that , it saved me in your 200 russian scenario !

"The effect of range on HE effectiveness is real, but occurs through accuracy"

OK my fault , I'll try to rephrase my question , if 2 shells hit exactly the same spot , will there be a blast difference if the shot is fired at 10 meters or 1000 meters ( does the speed of impact matter ? the angle ? Sorry if this is a stupid question , I really don't know )

And finally ( if you don't mind of course ) , what would be your purchase ( around 1000 points to spend ) against :

Allied attack , late 41' , flat open ground , for the germans everything regular except a vet sharpshooter

1 Company of infantry

2x Mg-34

2x 81mm mortars

1x sharpshooter

2x Pak38 At guns

8x trenches

Many thanks for your time , that shortcut to knowledge of the game was awesome . You've probably saved me from a couple of frustating games .

[Tux]

Originally posted by SebastienL:

OK .In case the enemy has not yet revealed his AT guns , should my tanks remain at a distance at which the chance of getting hit is low or on the contray try to close in and be more accurate to support my infantry ?

You can use light armoured units such as armoured cars to force AT guns to reveal themselves. All you need is a single unit that can't be killed by HMGs or ATRs. Once your forward infantry encounter pinning HMG fire you can then drive it forwards to spot the HMGs' positions. The defender either allows you to do this and wipe out his HMGs or he reveals a full AT gun to try and knock out your light armour scout. Either way, you win.

If you only have tanks, you can do as Jason said in the above post:

Originally posted by JasonC:

Tanks also increase their firepower when they close by the MGs working better - much more effective at 200 meters than 600, better still at 100 meters. And by getting full spots instead of leaving sound contacts. The downside, of course, is they expose themselves more to enemy AT weapons, especially their flanks, to hidden guns. So closing is an optional aggressive thing to do with tanks. It is often smart to close with just 1 to get spots and lure out more enemies, without risking the rest.

[Tux]

Originally posted by SebastienL:

OK my fault , I'll try to rephrase my question , if 2 shells hit exactly the same spot , will there be a blast difference if the shot is fired at 10 meters or 1000 meters ( does the speed of impact matter ? the angle ? Sorry if this is a stupid question , I really don't know )

It makes no difference whatsoever. Apart from the odd mm penetration gained against armoured targets the range from which an HE shell arrives, and the speed at which it is travelling, do not matter. The destructive effect of the shell is 99% a result of the explosion, caused by its chemical contents, and the shrapnel this creates. In real life you may get slightly different results at different ranges/ velocities due to the shell penetrating further into the earth pre-detonation or something, but in game that won't be modelled.

[SebastienL]

Originally posted by Tux:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SebastienL:

OK .In case the enemy has not yet revealed his AT guns , should my tanks remain at a distance at which the chance of getting hit is low or on the contray try to close in and be more accurate to support my infantry ?

You can use light armoured units such as armoured cars to force AT guns to reveal themselves. All you need is a single unit that can't be killed by HMGs or ATRs. Once your forward infantry encounter pinning HMG fire you can then drive it forwards to spot the HMGs' positions. The defender either allows you to do this and wipe out his HMGs or he reveals a full AT gun to try and knock out your light armour scout. Either way, you win.

If you only have tanks, you can do as Jason said in the above post:

Originally posted by JasonC:

Tanks also increase their firepower when they close by the MGs working better - much more effective at 200 meters than 600, better still at 100 meters. And by getting full spots instead of leaving sound contacts. The downside, of course, is they expose themselves more to enemy AT weapons, especially their flanks, to hidden guns. So closing is an optional aggressive thing to do with tanks. It is often smart to close with just 1 to get spots and lure out more enemies, without risking the rest.

</font>

[SebastienL]

Originally posted by Tux:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SebastienL:

OK my fault , I'll try to rephrase my question , if 2 shells hit exactly the same spot , will there be a blast difference if the shot is fired at 10 meters or 1000 meters ( does the speed of impact matter ? the angle ? Sorry if this is a stupid question , I really don't know )

It makes no difference whatsoever. Apart from the odd mm penetration gained against armoured targets the range from which an HE shell arrives, and the speed at which it is travelling, do not matter. The destructive effect of the shell is 99% a result of the explosion, caused by its chemical contents, and the shrapnel this creates. In real life you may get slightly different results at different ranges/ velocities due to the shell penetrating further into the earth pre-detonation or something, but in game that won't be modelled. </font>

[JasonC]

I have to make some assumptions to pick sample Russian forces to attack that defense. I'll assume it is November 1941, that the Russian force type is combined arms with mechanized corps parent formation, and that rarity is off. You say around 1000 - I'll assume that means 1050 from 3:2 attacker odds facing a 700 point defense.

The core force in all cases is a T-34 platoon 1942 model and a motor rifle company. Each of the following is based on some idea added to that core.

KV-2 force -

1 KV-2

3 T-34 1942 model

Motor Rifle company

4th Motor Rifle platoon

+2 Maxim MMG making 4 total

2 82mm mortars, on map

1 76mm mountain gun (or regimental 76mm + DP LMG)

1 120mm mortar FO

37mm AA force -

Drop KV-2, 2 Maxims, Mtn gun.

Add 2 37mm AA, 1 76mm Regimental guns.

Add 5th Motor Rifle platoon

Prep barrage force -

4 T-34 1942 model

Motor Rifle company

4th Motor Rifle platoon

+2 Maxims making 4 all told

2 82mm mortars on map

2 122mm gun FO, conscript

Infantry -

3 T-34s 1942 model

Motor Rifle company

4th and 5th Motor Rifle platoons

2 76mm mountain guns

4 MMG, 2 82mm on map

120mm mortar FO

All of them have 3-4 tanks, 3-5 infantry platoons, 2 heavy weapons groups each with MGs and one 82mm mortar, on map guns for ranged overwatch, and some sort of indirect HE.

If you use the conscript 122mm guns, plot them on turn one as a "map" fire, on whatever cover the map contains in the enemy set up zone. Delay with the Q key until turn 10 or so - they will land over 4 minutes beyond that. They won't be too effective against trenches, but should be against whatever doesn't fit in them.

The infantry only about matches the defenders in numbers. They are a solid type, 10 man squads with LMG and 2 SMG each, adequate ammo. The idea is to smash the majority of the infantry defenders with HE before they get to grips, so they only need to beat a remnant of the German company. Obviously they won't be in perfect shape themselves.

The mortars and guns reply to any PAK that show themselves. Tanks duel if caught in the open, else "skulk" back into low ground until those silence said PAK. Then back out again.

The idea of the gamey KV-2 approach is (1) even 50mm can't kill it and (2) its own 152mm HE will nuke things. The idea of the 37mm AA is they have very high ammo, ROF, and accuracy, and can shred guns first off, and keep MGs etc suppressed easily. The idea of the cheap mountain or infantry guns is to stretch the ammo load of the tanks - 45 HE or so each for the cost of a squad.

The 120mm FO can be used on a tree patch where defenders aren't in trenches, only foxholes, or it can be used to "smoke" the infantry main body into firing range, one time (minute and change), after they laboriously advance to 350-400 meters or so without the help. Human wave behind the smoke into every available shellhole and patch of rocky in front of the defenders etc. Be stationary, with the T-34s up within canister range, by the time it clears.

Naturally, different rarity settings or parent force type would lead to different details. But you get the idea, I trust.

[SebastienL]

Jasonc ,

Wow !! More than I expected ...

Again , thank you very much for your time and sharing your knowledge of the game . It is more than helpful .