Ambush conundrum

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I have a question about ambush tactics that occured to me while playing as the Germans in the CMAK demo Line of Defense. I had that nice antitank gun on the side of the map overlooking an open area. I knew that the allies had multiple AFVs, so I set a cover arc so that it wouldn't open fire at the first approaching vehicle. It worked quite well initially. The AI brought in 3 light tanks at the same time and gave me good side shots.

The problem is that during this turn, additional allied tanks showed up. I opened up and took out the 3 light tanks. However, the other tanks pinned then knocked out the gun in the same turn. It was a case of biting off more than I could chew.

Hence the conundrum. If I shoot too early, I give away my position and miss out on some targets that I might have had (and/or force myself to fire at less optimal distances/angles). If I wait too long, there are too many targets for me to take out and they destroy my gun very quickly. The same conundrum exists with infantry, MG kill zones as well. Shoot at the first opportunity and it's not an ambush. Wait too long and the ambusher gets overwhelmed.

Any suggestions on how to deal with these situations? I thought a more "keyholed" ambush might be better, although you are then greatly limiting the number of targets you can take out before revealing your position. On the other hand, at least the ambusher isn't immediately slaughtered.

[edgars]

I think 3 tanks (even light) with one gun is a good result.

The reality on the CM battlefield is such, that when you open up with your gun, you expect it do die in couple of turns. Question is, how many casualties can this gun cause inbetween.

Keyholing them helps to keep them alive for (little) longer, just time has to be invested to find the possible route of advance. Remember that in this case even if the gun eventually dies, it has bought you precious time by denying ground for enemy advance.

[The Colonel]

I agree. I think you've done about all you can do in that situation.

[throwdjohn]

the ai has interesting tank tactics. they pick one great spot, then send ALL of their tanks there, all at the same time. if you have enough to KO their tanks great, if not, they get u peicemeal. not true to life i don't think, but it doesn't work for me. ever.

[slysniper]

Setting up a good ambush can be a real test at times in cm, Your example is great for two or three tanks at the most, but if your have a chance at having to fight 8 to 12 tanks, then you need to think about firepower more, One gun should die quickly when 6 tanks come rolling down a valley, good angle or not, but if you had 3 AT guns on the map and you didn't set them up all in one ambush location then you are the one at fault, you must decide if you have set up enough units that can kill the most likely threat. Now if you only had that one AT gun, and he has all that armor, you are hurting no matter what you do, but here is one trick.

Set the gun in a location that might be driven past and not spotted, you will need to be off the path of the tanks a couple of 100 meters, place the gun arc very close to the unit and hide the unit, I have the unit even face to the rear, what you are trying to find is a spot where they drive past and then at the beginning of a turn you change orders to fire and hopefully have a couple of rear shots or at least flank shots before his tanks cover the ambush, of course all this is dependent on a map location that might work for this tactic and no enemy units sneaking up on you, sometimes a few infantry units hidden for security might be worth adding in. The best I have achieved doing this has been 2 KIA's and 2 immobilized tanks for one 37mm at gun, not bad being outnumbered 6 to 1 at the time. Good Hunting

[ April 29, 2005, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: slysniper ]

[Panzer Aufklarung]

Slysniper is correct on all counts. I say this as an old 11H (AT Crewman/US Army). When setting up an antiarmor ambush, always employ your AT assets in pairs at least - one ATG an ambush does not make. Interlock/overlap the kill areas from complementary (mutually supporting) firing positions- keep them far enough apart that they won't be spotted or targeted simultaneously -challenge. If possible locate with a covered egress route that ideally leads to a pre-selected alternate firing position (covering much of same KZ or a supplemental position covering a secondary KZ.

[athlete]

A tactic that I've been using lately calls for smoke to be dropped on formations of tanks prior ton engagement with AT weapons.

It's great for stalling an enemy advance insofar as they either sit and wait it out, or try and exit the area blanketted simaltaneously. If they choose to just continue, then you often get shots at single exposed tanks as they exit the smoke one by one.

At the very least, if you drop some HE on their heads, or open up on them with small arms first, you can get them to button up and that tends increase the time it take for them to acquire and respond...assuming of course its a flank attack.

[laze and blaze]

When I set up AT guns in a position that can see everything, they always get killed quickly when I open fire. Because you get the multiple tanks firing at you as described. When playing against the AI the tanks will usually follow ducks in a row. Position ATG to take advantage of this. Key holeing was mentioned, but if you position ATG so that only one tank will be exposed at a time, then the ATG will be a killer. As AI tanks crest the hill or come out from the treeline they can be picked off one at a time while being ganged up on by multiple ATGs. You can still have a large arch covered by your ATGs this way.

[edgars]

Originally posted by slysniper:

Set the gun in a location that might be driven past and not spotted, you will need to be off the path of the tanks a couple of 100 meters, place the gun arc very close to the unit and hide the unit, I have the unit even face to the rear, what you are trying to find is a spot where they drive past and then at the beginning of a turn you change orders to fire and hopefully have a couple of rear shots or at least flank shots before his tanks cover the ambush, of course all this is dependent on a map location that might work for this tactic and no enemy units sneaking up on you, sometimes a few infantry units hidden for security might be worth adding in.

A great tactic but very difficult if you play against human opponents, who have, i should say, a rather gamey tactic of scouting with infantry.

[slysniper]

Thus the reason for the infantry for security, when doing this, try to set the infantry to draw the enemy away from the hidden gun placement. Difficult,Yes, but great fun when it works.

[Cannon-fodder]

Is reconning with infantry that gamey? I would have thought it was common sense... Tanks on overwatch with infantry probing...

[laze and blaze]

I think Edgars was being sarcastic about the scouting being gamey.

[Carl Puppchen]

It sounds ugly but you need to figure out if you really can STOP the enemy or if you are just going to wound him and they are going to take the objective with some casualties. In some scenario the main constraint is time and each of these "roadblock" type situations holds up his advance for a couple of turns while the AFV's turn to face the ATG weapon and / or back up if the TAC AI chickens out.

If you really think that you are going to STOP the enemy then you need to let the light tanks go by and try to smash their most dangerous weapons FIRST and then mop up on the smaller vehicles. Even if the smaller vehicles manage to "squat" at the objective you will be able to push them off if you have AT assets left after killing the big guys. By shooting at the "scout" tanks you played into your enemy's hands, assuming that you have more than token defensive forces. Note that this might mean that you need to wait for flank or rear shots on the bigger tanks and this is harrowing so it isn't a covered arc but more of a 'hide' situation, and a good attacker will scout with infantry that might stumble across your assets, so it is a nail-biting situation. I can't say that I usually can pull this off myself... I usually get trigger happy and feel happy blowing up a few of the enemy's tanks from an ambush but then they eradicate my main defenders and mop up at the objective - but this is the way you probably ought to do it if you want to KILL, not WOUND. Just my opinion.