Conscripts

[Falcon988]

Has anyone ever made a successful attack with nothing but conscripts? Even if the defenders are conscripts as well, it just seems practically worthless to even try. Ever had a situation where these poor troops exceeded your expectations by a huge margin?

[JasonC]

Not hard against the AI, though that isn't saying very much. Russians human wave from body of cover to body of cover (never right on top of the enemy). Then fire from 200-250m out. Some will scatter, higher HQs stay in the 3rd wave and collect them. (Higher HQs with command and morale bonuses make a huge difference with conscripts). Conscript FOs use turn 1 fireplans, amply delayed by QQQ to give the men time to get close. Conscript heavy weapons collect under HQs with combat bonuses and support from the start line, or the first body of cover with LOS to the enemy if his positions can't be seen from the start line.

I prefer greens for the obvious reasons, and most importantly because they can still use "advance" (as long as in command, which is usually). A few conscripts mixed with greens - even 1/3rd - are no great drawback. I send them last, not first, in that case.

[Larry Thorne]

If you want to practise conscript and green troops against regular and veteran play the russians on any of the allied attacks in VC Vuosalmi campaign. In the end quantity overruns quality. Hard hard fighting in tough conditions. Played the whole campaign tcp/ip-pbem, the tide was turned about half way into it and the quantity started to make a difference. Frustrating but revarding.

Just my 2 cents

-LT

[Falcon988]

Originally posted by Larry Thorne:

If you want to practise conscript and green troops against regular and veteran play the russians on any of the allied attacks in VC Vuosalmi campaign. In the end quantity overruns quality. Hard hard fighting in tough conditions. Played the whole campaign tcp/ip-pbem, the tide was turned about half way into it and the quantity started to make a difference. Frustrating but revarding.

Just my 2 cents

-LT

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll be sure to look that one up soon.

[Soddball]

You can win battles with conscript troops, but it's harder.

The biggest thing that you gain is numbers, and you shouldn't be afraid to use that benefit.

However, there are ways to improve the odds.

Firstly, if you're purchasing units for a QB, buy lots of support units - machine guns and mortars. A conscript 82mm mortar round hurts just as much as an elite one. Conscript MGs and mortars can't use the 'cover arc' function but you can order them to area fire, which works well.

Advance slowly. Keep your platoons in command radius. Keep company HQs close behind the main line of advance to rally fleeing squads. Saturate your target with MG and mortar fire.

I prefer to play using green and conscript troops - I find it much more of a challenge.

[Bannon DC]

I can't remember the name of the battle... but it was one of the two that came with the CMBB demo. I won with the Russians using the tactics described above. Cover fire, small moves to cover, sneaking, human wave to cover last bit of terrain. Keep your men from getting too tired. They will break easier. Company commanders are crucial since platoon HQs will die or break along the way.

For the numbers game, you can split the squads as well. Makes more targets. Any conscript unit will duck for cover when shot at... do give the enemy more targets.

I actually prefer lower experienced mortar units when firing at groups of enemy infantry. They tend to scatter their rounds instead of pinpointing them like vet units. Also more effective at laying smoke if they have more than a few rounds.

[Carl Puppchen]

I always play the axis and my usual opponent always plays the allies.

Since he played the russians a lot in CMBB he had a lot of conscripts. Conscript russians are even harder than typical conscripts because their command delays are enormous. This is partially mitigated by the human wave command, but this command certainly has its detractors, as you can see on the forum if you look it up.

He had a very interesting analysis. He considered any conscript a huge success if it shot off all of its ammo before dying. That was a sign that he did it right! I also use this rule of thumb on my italian truck-gun things I tend to get stuck with by the computer (we play random games for fun sometimes, damn I never pick those voluntarily) - if I shoot off the ammo of those things it would be a miracle!

As far as attacking with conscripts, it is very hard, don't let the posters on this site mislead you. They get panicked easily and take a LONG time to reform, and then you have to give them new orders.

Certainly the company commander is absolutely critical since he can rally anyone.

It goes without saying but the longer you can keep the conscripts from being fired on the better off you are.

I have little / no luck attacking with conscripts, or even green infantry. I find that they can defend OK in some circumstances (reverse slope / low visibility) and give them short covered arcs so they shoot off all their ammo quickly (especially if they have SMG's). Of course, you can't even use covered arcs with some conscripts so you have to "hide" them or just place them where they can't see the enemy until they are REALLY close.

Good luck!

[Cannon-fodder]

The biggest advantage of conscripts is that you get much higher firepower for your money, so use that to your advantage. Make sure you can mass overwhelming firepower at any unit that pops it's head up. Take your time, and don't push them into attacks unless you know the enemy is suppressed - your men can't handle being fired upon when moving over open ground.

I think the secret is to mass your infantry, MGs and mortars in a position where they can annihalate the enemy in detail - sure your conscripts may not be too hot at moving, or at taking fire, but they can still give it as well as anyone else. Fear artillery, this can put paid to your bunched up men, so spread out while retaining local superiority.

While conscript victories are quite possible, I think you need a substantially longer game in order to win with them - otherwise there isn't enough time to martial them and keep them happy.

[JasonC]

They need more time, they need fire support, they need battalion scale. And they are harder to use than greens in every way. I find the biggest difficulty with them is simply cover management, avoiding overcrowding, while keeping proper pacing.

First take a battalion - you definitely need the extra higher level HQs and the support weapons. I avoid battalion types full of 50mm mortars - those lack punch and the problem is bigger with conscripts since they tend to miss. 9-12 MMGs per battalion are useful. Add 4-6 on map 82mm mortars, and 2 76mm infantry guns. (Not ZIS-3s, the IGs or - rariety permitting - the mountain guns. Bigger HE loads, and cheap).

You get half as many higher level HQs as infantry platoons. Pay attention to leadership, it matters far more with conscripts. Use the ability to strip the poor HQs of their men and give them to a higher HQ with better bonuses. +2 command higher HQs are especially important - those get them to move out in half the time. Morale bonuses are also important, obviously.

A typical tactical grouping has 2 infantry platoons, a higher HQ, and a weapons section with MMGs and some sort of HE chucker, and ATR etc. You want to fight individual enemy platoons with that much stuff.

Don't move out with the heavy weapons until the ground ahead has been crossed by squad infantry platoons. Move them to cover already reached. And don't move them all at once - send a unit, give another orders and pad them to move out the next turn, do the same the following turn. A heavy weapons group should take 5 minutes to shift positions with only about half exposed in the open at any point in time, over an already scouted route.

You often have to bunch up very tightly at the set up to make use of the cover. Deal with it by moving out squad infantry platoons from each area one at a time, until the whole force expands the area it is in. I often have the lead platoons and the heavy weapons practically on top of each other at the start line. The heavy weapons sit still and the first wave moves. The rest of the squad infantry are typically packed into the remaining cover farther back, or spread wide in dead ground (behind a hill) or minimal cover (wheatfields are common e.g.).

Don't advance all the infantry at once or they stay way, way too bunched up. Remember that unlike better infantry, they stand a good chance of coming right back to the cover they just left and needing it again for 3 minutes, if they get shot at. Also, you need to give the orders a minute ahead of time to avoid getting killed by repeated 30 - 45 second command delays. Whoever is moving this turn, some other platoon is given an order to head to their cover, padded to just over 1 minute.

Move to contact is the safetest movement order for them when they might get fired upon. In cover it is the right thing, before any serious firefight has broken out. At range it is usually the right thing, too. You don't need to mess with the longer delays from "human wave" (as Russians) to cross the first few fields.

If you are under heavy MG fire at the start line, then sure use a wave. Target the next body of cover, not the enemy. The first part is similar to advance, but long ones become group runs - and they are quite vulnerable to losses on "run". Keep them 200m or less, and never on top of the enemy. It is just a cover to cover bound, doing with a minute of delay and 1-2 of rapid movement, followed by 1-2 of rally, what better infantry does in 4-5 minutes of short advances.

When you reach a line of cover from which you have LOS to the enemy, close enough for full IDs, stop trying to move and start seriously pulling triggers. Your forward platoons should fill the front line of cover, one squad per tile. Do not bunch more than that. Every heavy weapon can support from about twice as far away. Overwhelm the nearest enemies. I am often firing at a single German with a 76mm or 82mm, 4 MMGs, and 2 platoons of infantry at once. They typically pin within 30 seconds and rout in a minute or two. Once they run leave one MMG on them and shift fire with the rest.

When the nearby enemies you can see are all heads down, one platoon does another bound to the next set of cover, while one farther back takes its old cover. The effect is a deep column, because you won't all fit in the bits of cover on the frontage. A forward platoon will sometimes fail completely, a few half squaded and most of the rest running. Just fire back at the guys that show themselves to bring that about, and make them pay for doing it. Higher HQs farther back can worry about the renmants. The next platoon shoves forward when the enemy are heads down again.

You outshoot and outlast the enemy on the limited frontage. With numbers and overwatch, you can wreck the forward enemy even while being hurt yourselves. Those a bit deeper in the enemy position cause more pain. But have to keep it up repeatedly to stop the overall attack. Enemy HE chuckers (guns, not light mortars) and high ammo weapons are high priority for your own heavy weapons. His squad infantry ammo should not last, firefighting platoon after a platoon of yours at 150-200m into cover.

As I said, I find the cover management the hardest part. Fitting everyone somewhere sensible, managing delays up to a minute by planning the movement before it has to happen, dealing with the routed squad coming back and needing room.

As for arty, it hurts. Do not bunch up, but do expect him to break bits of your force at will when he has the ammo to spend. The guys set to move toward a place you see a spotting round, just zero out their orders. Guys there and moving, run when you see a spotting round - don't expect cover to help much.

If the rounds are already landing and they don't have a movement order, don't try to give them one. The delay is prohibitive, and "withdraw" will rout them. Gather what you can afterward, with a higher HQ filling in for the platoon HQ if it routed etc.

Expect a good HE blast to break a platoon for 5 minutes. Light mortars are livable - they hit 3-5 guys, panic one squad, pin a few, but pass quickly. Anything bigger does real damage. You rather be hit early or have the stuff fall on your less important weapons (MMGs still shoot fine when -2 men etc).

I can beat the AI with them when attacking, readily enough, using the above techniques. Against humans, I'd much rather have greens.

[annihilate_this_week]

I recently had a conscript T34-1940 get 3 or 4 PzIII (I think maybe one PzIV too) kills and survive to the end intact. He was part of a conspcript platoon of 4, 2 of his comrades went down pretty quick but him and his Lt. took out most of the enemy armor, the Lt. being knocked out shortly before the battle's end. Good hull down positions for both of them is what did it I belive. I think I got a minor victory as the outcome.

I think the scenario was "Directive #3"

[ May 01, 2005, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Talk'scheap ]