ichadwick Posted January 11, 2003 Share Posted January 11, 2003 I noticed that in my Sept. 1944 scenario, Volksgrenadier units are listed as available (actually they show up in August in CMBB). My reading says the announcement of conscription to create the Volksgrenadier wasn't made until Oct. 18, 1944 (source; Bullock; Hitler & Stalin, page 866). Bormann was responsible for them. And it would suggest to me that even if they were organzied rapidly, the earliest they could be at the front would be November 1944. Any comments on this anomaly? This site sugegsts some units were in operation as early as August 44, but most are not created until Oct. 9 44: Volksgrenadier info (some images of WW2 German weapons at: http://www.2ndss.org/?x=weapons) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichadwick Posted January 11, 2003 Author Share Posted January 11, 2003 Bump. Sorry - don't want this to get buried on page 197 before anyone has a chance to reply. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Existing units were redesignated VG from the summer of 1944 on. Units in process of formation were given the new designation. Changeover of actual TOEs may have taken somewhat longer. Initially it was just a morale measure, akin to the Russians calling some units "guards", but it soon reflected a real change in equipment - less infantry depth, more automatic weapons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Ichadwick, I guess you confuse Volkssturm with Volksgrenadier units. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Hitler's creation of the new VG divisions really ticked the old VG units off. The reason was that the title originally had to be earned and so was a mark of pride. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichadwick Posted January 12, 2003 Author Share Posted January 12, 2003 Originally posted by ParaBellum: Ichadwick, I guess you confuse Volkssturm with Volksgrenadier units.Nope. VG. I am building a scenario set in the Carpathians, mid-fall 1944. The VG appear in the list of available units from August. But I'm unsure if this is correct for that region. From what I recall, the VG were built from other under-utilized units, many of which had not seen combat but operated as support or supply units. The Volksturm (militia/Home Front) didn't operate outside Germany - they were forbidden to operate outside the Reich. Many were Hitler Youth conscripts. The VS was created on Sept. 22, 44 (although the decree was apparently not published until 20 October - see http://www.adeq.net/volkshist.htm). The VS saw its first frontline action in East Prussia in Oct. 44 when the Soviet 3rd Byelorussian Front attacked Goldap and region. But after that, the units were used to escort refugees fleeing the fighting through Poland. BTW, there was also the 404th and 410th Volks Artillery Corps and the 20th Volks Werfer (rocket-launcher) brigade on the western front. Anyone know if similar units were available in the East? I have found a few references to the VG, but aside from a very small number (which seem to have been on the western front), all other VG units seem to have been created in October 44 (the date cited is usually Oct. 9). The VG official swearing-in/oath-taking ceremony was apparently held in January 45 - at the same time panzerfausts and new uniforms were handed out to VS units. I'm trying to determine just when the VG and other Volks units were at the front in 44/45 and what sort of equipment that had. (another link - a video of 1945: http://www.rzm.com/videos/1945.cfm) Not sure what game/year this refers to but here's a rarity chart for German units: http://jnaf-suz.hp.infoseek.co.jp/CM%20unit%20list%20ger.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Hi Ichadwick, the reason I thought you confused Volkssurm and Volksgrenadier was that you stated Bormann was responsible for the Volksgrenadier units and that the announcement to create them was made on Oct 18th 1944. AFAIK Bormann was never responsible for Volksgrenadier units, since theye were part of the Heer. But he was, at least for formation and training, responsible for the Volkssturm. And the date you give is the exact date when Hitler anounced in a radio broadcast the creation of the Volkssturm. Since this site shows the first Volksgrenadier Divisions were created as early as August '44 I think the date you cite is wrong and matches far better for the Volkssturm. [ January 12, 2003, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Here is some further clarification about the shift to VG divisions, sketched from info in the first chapter of US army green book "the Lorraine Campaign", which discusses general German reinforcement and reorganization efforts after the twin crises of AG center and France in the summer of 1944. There were two waves of new divisions ordered in the summer of 1944. In early July, 15 new divisions were ordered in response to the collapse of AG center in "Bagration" - which turned into 15 mobile and 3 static divisions, 15 sent east, 2 west, and 1 to Norway. These were formed from Luftwaffe and navy transfers, the new age classes for 1944, by ending draft deferral for various categories of industrial workers, plus men coming out of hospital. At the time of their formation, these were not yet designated "VG". Most of these divisions reached the front by early September. Then on 2 September, following the collapse in France, 25 new divisions were ordered for the fall. Originally they were planned as an "operational reserve", but most of them wound up sent to the west to shore it up after the collapse in France. They were to be available at the front between October and the begining of December. The same methods of gathering personnel were used, plus rear unit comb-outs. In addition, older age units previously assigned to "fortress" or garrison battalions were sent to the front, and some school units were also cannabilized. In early September, it was ordered that both these waves of new summer and fall 1944 divisions would be designated (redesignated, in the case of the first 18) "Volksgrenadier". "Grenadier" had previously been a designation earned by only a few veteran units. The new divisions were supplimented by additional new formations meant to work with them, as higher echelon troops. These compromised 12 motorized artillery brigades, 10 werfer brigades, 10 Pz Jgr battalions, and 12 light Flak battalions. Some of these formations had similar "Volks" this and that designations. At the same time, armor coming from the factories was redirected from rebuilding existing Panzer divisions to equipping 10 new Panzer brigades, 101 through 110 number. So, there were all together 40 odd infantry divisions in these waves of new formations ordered in the summer, which got the designation "VG". Those with new formation numbers were the "500" series, while some used the old division number of a cadre being rebuilt. The formations involved, therefore, started forming as early as July, and this wave reached the front by September. The -designation-, however, "caught up with them" only when the second wave was ordered, and was then made "retroactive", effectively, to the July - September wave. The second wave, ordered at the same time as the designation change, reached the front October to December. As for formation load out, it varied. The size of the infantry division had been about 12,500 earlier in 1944, and that was the pattern for the July to September wave when initially formed. The VG TOE called for only 10,000, and that was the pattern when the October to December wave was formed. Whether the new TOE was applied retroactively to July-September wave formations, I don't know, but I think it unlikely, until they were rebuilt anyway. So not everything called VG was VG in TOE pattern. Of course, not everything was built to up to the TOE it was "supposed" to have in reality, either, regardless of which pattern was being followed. Realities varied from unit to unit more than a "1-0" pattern difference would suggest. I hope this helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Good point. The original VG divisions were not what came to be known as VG but were regular infantry divisions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichadwick Posted January 13, 2003 Author Share Posted January 13, 2003 Thanks. It appears that I did confuse the dates for the official announcement of VG and VS formations (or rather - my sources were a bit vague on this point - I don't have the hard sources I once had in my library). They were close enough that it appeared the author was talking about only one of them (VG). Does anyone know when the VG was actually created (officially)? And when units first saw action on the East Front? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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