Tips on terrain masking, anyone?

[Rikki]

Hi, all...

After recently having my butt handed to me by the AI when failing to remain hidden I feel the need to ask some of the more seasoned vets a few questions regarding CM terrain.

Sometimes I move my tanks to a spot that looks protected by trees, slopes or buildings only to suddenly see that scary red line trace from a known AT gun position to my tank before my tank is summarily obliterated. The problem is that CM does not give a very detailed picture of the foliage in order to save computing power, which of course makes sense. But how can I better understand the visibility in CM? Is there a way to check LOS between two points where you do not yet have units? Or do you simply trace your steps carefully at ground level and keep looking toward the threat to see if its location becomes visible? (I tried this and it helps but I still feel unsure about my exposure.)

Sometimes I find myself wishing for a 3-D graph display of the map so I can better understand the topography. Am I alone or has anyone else been similarly challenged by CM maps?

Another related question: I have at times been surprised to see targeting lines drawn through large areas of scattered trees (not just near the treeline) and even right through buildings. Can someone explain how to anticipate this better so that I do not think I am hidden when I'm not? Are there any "rules" for terrain cover in CM, such as 40 meters of scattered trees blocks LOS but it only takes 20 meters of woods, that kind of thing?

Thanks for any input on this subject.

Rikki

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Rikki:

Hi, all...

After recently having my butt handed to me by the AI when failing to remain hidden I feel the need to ask some of the more seasoned vets a few questions regarding CM terrain.

Sometimes I move my tanks to a spot that looks protected by trees, slopes or buildings only to suddenly see that scary red line trace from a known AT gun position to my tank before my tank is summarily obliterated. The problem is that CM does not give a very detailed picture of the foliage in order to save computing power, which of course makes sense. But how can I better understand the visibility in CM? Is there a way to check LOS between two points where you do not yet have units? Or do you simply trace your steps carefully at ground level and keep looking toward the threat to see if its location becomes visible? (I tried this and it helps but I still feel unsure about my exposure.)

Sometimes I find myself wishing for a 3-D graph display of the map so I can better understand the topography. Am I alone or has anyone else been similarly challenged by CM maps?

Another related question: I have at times been surprised to see targeting lines drawn through large areas of scattered trees (not just near the treeline) and even right through buildings. Can someone explain how to anticipate this better so that I do not think I am hidden when I'm not? Are there any "rules" for terrain cover in CM, such as 40 meters of scattered trees blocks LOS but it only takes 20 meters of woods, that kind of thing?

Thanks for any input on this subject.

Rikki

Hi Rikki. Yes, good questions I'm sure a new player would be asking. Basically your questions will answer themselves in time, once you get to better know the terrain/buildings better. There are very few absolutes, as visibility is very much effected by weather and time of day.

A good way to start is, during setup, take a vehicle or infantry unit, and use the LOS tool to measure how far you can see into woods, scattered trees, pines, etc. This will give you the information you need to know to remain protected under the weather/time of day conditions of the game you are playing.

As for the buildings and seeing right through them . . . you can see through shacks, and light buildings if you're right behind them, otherwise building block LOS (more or less).

The best thing you can do to help you in general is to setup terrain in the scenario editor, and play around with units wherever you like, using the LOS tool to get a feel for it.

This game takes a long time to get a good handle on, so be patient.

Hope that helps.

[Akula2]

I am also a LOS challenged player.

It gets better.

I got blown to smitereens from every one of your examples repeatedly until I had almost a gut instinct. (I still get bit semi often)

I don't use all the charts and graphs and stuff. Not yet anyhow. I'm still a newblet.

Speaking strictly for tanks I've found that being well behind hills is always a safe bet. Buildings and woods are less reliable.

All foliage can be seen into and through to different distances. I think it's something like 26m into woods in the middle of summer.

To the credit of the game and the frustration to me, CM seems to adjust these values by season. In the dead of winter I've found that one can see through up to 3 or 4 tiles of woods. Of course other conditions such as night or fog apply also.

There is no LOS tool that I know of, and I'm sort of glad for that. I like things the way they are in that respect. It's the very least I can do to send a half squad ahead of my valuable armor to see if it has a LOS to that patch of suspicious trees.

Thats what I do now almost without exception.

When I do move I almost always dash my vehicles with the fast command to someplace that my gut tells me is safe like behind a big hill that has already been inspected by infantry. Ideally that infantry will still be there in force.

This often leaves the tank with a less than desireable LOS himself. My next waypoint is usually "Move to Hulldown" or "Move to Contact" depending on the situation.

The other thing I do is use covered arcs to keep my turret in a position facing a suspected threat. If I do get tagged (and I do) I'll probably take a hit in the front. This has saved me many times.

Like I said, I'm LOS challenged. It's very difficult for me. It used to be worse. Often I miss wonderful little blind spots that will get me that much closer to where I'm going unless I zoom around at ground level and have a good look. (Tcip opponents rarely enjoy waiting for someone like me to do that.)

In a pbem that is still going on I did just that. I missed a nice (if small) ridgeline for many turns.

It doesnt take much of a hill to hide a tank depending on the elevation of the threat.

To help me I've recently started using the terrain grid mods. I didnt want to for a long time. The fact was that I needed to due to my affliction. It has helped in most situations. It gives a better initial overall impression of the terrain. I still need to be careful in certain terrain types that I don't have covered though, such as wheatfields.

I'm sure some much better players will be along soon enough to tell us both much more. (one already did before I finished this post )

[ August 27, 2004, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Akula2 ]

[junk2drive]

i have found myself trying to move an at gun into position, checking los through whatever at level 1. i move the gun 3m to where i think it is safe, hit go and watch it get hit by a tank (a.i.) blast from 500m away. frustrating. los tool only works from where you are, not where you are going, unless you can place another unit there first.

[junk2drive]

another of your points. ambushes work both ways. if the enemy has set his gun on hide with a cover arc, you wont see it until it raises its head to shoot you.

[Rikki]

junk2drive: I realize I will not see an anemy who is hidden. I was talking about those times when I'm trying to keep out of sight of a particular terrain feature where I know or suspect an enemy weapon is.

Er, what is a "cover arc?" Is this a military term or a CM gameplay word?

[Hensworth]

Both.

Although this is a helpful crowd, I would suggest you read the manual on this.

[Akula2]

Wow. I'm at a loss to define "Covered Arc", lol.

First off its an order that can be given to almost any unit.

It orders a unit to limit or encourage its fire within the defined area.

It is in fact an arc. (I've at times wished it wasn't and that it could be a kill box or such.)

There are two types. The blue and the gold. Blue orders the unit to only engage vehicles. The gold encourages the unit to shoot at anything.

I've found this order to be essential to all types of play.

For instance, if I want an AT gun to hold its fire until I dang well tell it to fire. If I dont it's likely to fire at the first jeep or squad it can see.

The uses are innumerable. Some units simply shouldnt fire until the enemy is within a certain range. Smg squads for instance have a firepower rating that drops off drastically after a point.

Anyhow, on to why I really posted again. I overshot your question as well. I realized it after I edited my last post. You clearly indicated that you were interested in a known threat. (Sometimes I don't read my briefings thouroughly either )

My experience with a known AT gun is that your dilema has less to do with terrain than tactics.

This is a weapon that is designed from the start to punch holes in tanks.

The prefered method for me is to kill the dang thing. Sometimes thats easier said than done though and sometimes despite its evil purpose it is my own tank that is the best weapon to kill it.

In that case, and others as well, I may have to move my poor tank. If so, it must be pinned under a hail of fire. I find that dissimilar types of fire work the best.

Lay a ton of squad firepower on it (hopefully within their optimum covered arc ranges). Use mortars!! They HATE mortars and artillery!

Sometimes, that tank can even find a nice lil spot to use the Area Fire targetting to lay some High Explosives of its own within inches it the guns position. (my favorite )

If you can't kill it and you can't supress it and you have to move then your probably going to lose a tank.

Thats my experience, as limited as it may be.

Beware guns in trenches.

Edit-

Btw. You mentioned that sometimes your uncertain or nervous when you move your tank. So am I. I hope I'm always a lil nervous too. That thrill is part of what keeps me coming back.

Playing others is often very much like a Friday night poker game repleat with luck, bluffs and betting strategys.

[ August 28, 2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Akula2 ]

[dieseltaylor]

Having a gridded terrain mod is almost a necessity if you are playing TCP/IP to a tme limit. And it really does help even in other games as it means you can do your moves quivker and therefore have more games : )

[Rikki]

It amazes me how much I learn from these discussions. "Gridded terrain mod?" I didn't know there was such a thing. Now I'm even more anxious to get a hold of these mods. (I've been trying to download a mod manager for my Mac but I can't access Battlefront's ftp server.)

Sgt. Kelly, why do you say read the manual? I did read it, and while it offered some generalities about why LOS might go through woods and buildings it did not say if there was any necessary distance/technique for remaining hidden. I would hope that is a valid reason for posting?

To everyone who responded so far, thank you for your insights. While I am still feeling unsteady about how LOS behaves in CM I can accept it more readily knowing it is simply one of the many challenges of the game and not born out of mere ignorance on my part.

Of course, if anybody has a tried-and-true system they want to talk about, I'm still popping in to check this thread. :cool:

Until then, though, the advice I'm getting from everyone here seems to be when you think you have taken all the necessary steps to hide in cover, better take at least one more step.

(I just figured out how the smileys work.)

[JasonC]

Rules of thumb - you need 2 full tiles of woods or tall pines in most seasons. Scattered woods, twice as much. Buildings are usually good cover for one vehicle directly behind them. Even if there is an occasional "through window" LOS line, usually the building will intercept the shell in flight if the LOS line is marginal.

Hills are good cover for vehicles. It makes a difference whether you are adjacent to a contour line (roughly, within 10m) or back from it. Back is "down", next to is "up and looking over". You can get unlimited LOS to a higher terrain level if you are right next to a contour line.

In general, for vehicle fighting the most important consideration is how short a movement can be that creates or breaks LOS. That makes crests and buildings the preferred forms of cover. Typically a move of less than 20m can turn the visibility picture from "nothing can see me" to "I can see half the world".

Avoid absolute crestlines, because when you go over them the whole map sees you. It is better to pick the half you want visible, so e.g. you can have your best armor facing that way. So, creep around the top of the hill, not right over it.

Infantry always goes first to look for things. A half squad is expendable (and will probably just pin in the first minute of fire at long range, anyway). A main battle tank is not (and can fry for good in 10 seconds flat).

Vehicles need cover as much as infantry does. But they go about getting it in a different way. Infantry gets cover by being in terrain. Vehicles get it by putting terrain between them and a threat. Which means, you have to know where the threat is to pick the right cover.

The hardest part of reading CM maps is the height differences, especially small height changes. You can see some of it better with "gridded grass" terrain mods. But these still leave a lot to be desired, and in my experience still leave it quite hard to judge the lie of the ground.

The only real solution, unfortunately, is view level 1 or 2. Select the unit, hit 1 or 2, and pan around. I say "unfortunately" because this involves lots of micromanagement in any but the smallest battles. You can also "scan" the terrain with the LOS tool, looking for "kinks" in the sighting line and where it stops being blue. But to spot the useful seams in the terrain, you need to fly over it at level 1 or 2, in practice.

Vehicles moving from cover to cover should fast move, not "hunt". Hunt will pause to fire, often at inappropriate times. Only use it when you know your tank dominates any threats in front of it. Otherwise, fast move or "shoot and scoot", ending either in a chosen firing position or in complete defilade against all know threats.

Infantry needs to move through covered areas your tanks hide behind, to clear it of enemy teams with infantry AT, and to see out the other side and spot enemy tanks or bunkers in the next field, before you go around the cover. Hidden AT guns can still surprise you. But you will lose fewer tanks with a few half squads going first.

Tanks do not need to drive over the enemy to fight. Their firepower is almost completely unaffected by range. They should walk their LOS lines over enemy held areas, rather than walking themselves over those areas. If a tank has a visible, fully located target, then it should be firing not moving.

What you want is a succession of positions, each of which can see only a portion of the enemy side of the map. Overweight whoever is in that limited portion. Then progress to the next, "scanning" through the enemy position from long range. Your leading infantry should go well ahead, and enter these areas right behind LOS of your tanks. That way anything that fires at them, the tanks kill. If nothing fires, you clear that area and keep it.

If your infantry is too far away, MGs and such will be able to fire while remaining mere sound contacts. Your tanks can't protect them by fire, in that case. You have to get somebody closer to ID the shooter's location, then the tanks can take it out. This typically means you need infantry 100-200m from the enemy (though the range is longer for bigger caliber guns).

So, infantry first, gets up close and personal while moving from cover to cover. Tanks lag, and walk their sights over the same areas the infantry is going, just ahead of them.

I hope this helps.

[Akula2]

The tank was conceptionalized in WWI to overcome another contemporary innovation's dominance; the machine gun. The TD and dual purpose weapons aside.

It's role remains basically the same.

It is a weapon of exploitation.

Do not get use to taking hits and shrugging them off. The infantry (we) will kill you in the end.

All arms support the infantry.

Gawd I love CM.

This may sound strange, but a King Tiger is a very fragile unit.

Yes.

Tag it and it never comes back. Knocked out? Abandoned? Gun Hit? ... they are all the same. They are mission kills.

EDIT-

The hunt command can also be expanded from complete supremecy to local tactical. Hunt command works best here. Think in close. I'm at a loss to describe it but lemme tell you what's going on in a current pbem.

He overwhelmed me.

Now He's in my perimeter amongst the buildings.

I turn my turret to his last or suspected future location and move .... my turret is facing directly at him. His (if any) is facing the infantry squad he's currently persecuing.

I have a side facing and he'll die.

He has a side facing as well but can't get his turret around in time.

He dies.

I AM HUNTING MY FOE

[ August 30, 2004, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Akula2 ]

[Rikki]

Wow, great tips, Jason C.! Especially the part about the "seams" and the number of tiles needed for cover. Guess I need to check the scenario editor to see how big a tile is but that's exactly the kind of CM-peculiar info I was seeking. Thanks!

Those "contours" you mentioned. I assume you find those with the grid mod? And are the "seams" you refer to those subtle edges you sometimes see along ridgelines in open terrain areas? (I don't immediately recall seeing them as well in wooded areas, but maybe they are visible there, too?)

As for using infantry as a screen for tanks, yes, that is well-documented in the manual and elsewhere. I was primarily referring to cases where no infantry is at hand. However, in my case it never hurts to hear the lesson again. And again! (It's embarrassing how often I have been seduced into sending my tanks charging into the fray in quest of quick glory, only to meet with multiple metalic bonfires.)

Again, thanks, all, for this great input. I can now take on that formerly all-seeing, all-knowing, X-ray vision-equipped AI with new confidence! :cool: