Trouble With Russian Training Scenario

[GBolio]

I'm playing through the Russian training scenarios created by JasonC and I'm having trouble #201. I've played through it twice and got a minor defeat both times.

As the Russians, you have a reinforced green company, with 3 122mm spotters, a 122mm mortar spotter, a couple of 76mm guns, a few mortars and several Mgs.

The attack is across open ground, and my main problem is caused by two MG42s in trenches on the left side. I can't get anything close enough to spot them - they're just a sound contact all game. I've tried area fire with my guns and mortars but only rarely will I get one of them pinned. The FOs are all conscript or green I think, so I can't use them to taget the MGs once the battle has started since it's a 23 min delay.

Without pinning the MGs, my advancing green infantry squads panic frequently, and it's very difficult to keep them organized for the attack.

Any suggestions?

[JasonC]

Don't try to hit the MG position with the 122s. Use those in the center woods areas, instead, where there are better targets (squad infantry and more of it, in tree cover - instead of just 2 HMG position in trenches).

I don't recommend using the 120mm mortar spotter on them either, at least not as HE. More on the 120mm option below.

The main solution, though, is just to advance on the right and in the center despite the HMG fire. The ranges are pretty long, and there is cover there. You have to use every piece of it well, and will still get men messed up, but you can still manage to advance to the rough patch.

Rough is 25% cover, good enough at ranges that long that the men will rally once they reach it.

Short of that, you have to use all the shellholes and rocky patches, and everyone has to use advance. Moving men will still take fire and some will break, while many pin. The key to surviving anyway is to avoid bunching up within the 25m range.

See, if you are bunched, each HMG shot not only inflicts pin level stuff on the unit hit, it also prevents rally of everyone else nearby. If you are spread enough, on the other hand, all the units shot previously are rallying the whole time an MG hammers somebody else. They will be back to "OK" by the time the first breaks.

2 MGs at range can't stop a whole company of infantry using proper "advance" drills, all available cover, and not bunching up.

Once into the better cover on the center and right, you can firefight the infantry ahead of you. In addition, the AI will often send some infantry out trying to recover the first flag in the center area, once you reach it. You should be able to cut those up rapidly.

Late, in this "take the pain" approach, you drop the 120mm on the woods and follow it with a right hook by half the remaining infantry, the rest overwatching with the heavy weapons. By then the HMGs on the left will be low on ammo and take themselves out of the fight that way. Once the first wave is in the center trees, have them fire and fed the remaining squad infantry forward. Then march through the center woods to take the flags.

The 120mm option is to instead plan to silence the HMGs relatively early, using the on map guns and the mortars as the breaking weapons, and following those up with MG fire just to prevent rally. To do this, as you found, the key is to get someone close enough to fully spot the HMGs. Just approaching directly from the front, that can be hard. So here is the trick.

Get a platoon in shellholes on the left ready to move out to spotting distance. Put the 50mm mortars with them, trailing slightly, to get those up within their effective range. 76s and 82mm have to be able to see the HMG positions, and if possible should be in shellhole or rocky cover themselves.

All that set, fire a *smoke mission* from the 120mm mortar FO, just ahead of the enemy HMG rough area. After it starts to land, move out rapidly with the left flank platoon, steering for the few shellholes shy of the HMG position at about 100 meters out. You only need to smoke to cover the *movement* of the leading infantry into spotting range of the HMG position. Now go stationary and wait for the smoke to clear.

Advance in the center. When the HMGs fire on the moving infantry, the left side men should get full IDs. Now put a 76mm gun on each HMG, plus either the 82mm mortar or a pair of 50mm mortars. Fire for 2 minutes with those. Now put an MMG on each from range, to slow or prevent rally. The left side squad infantry can also fire. Close in with the left side infantry while the HMGs are still pinned by the HE fire.

See the idea?

[GBolio]

Thanks for the very detailed reply. Hopefully I have time to try both methods this weekend. I think my problem was, as you suggested, having my infantry too bunched up. Also, I didn't realize the rough areas provide cover, so I'll try to work that in as well.

What is the advantage of the 'advance' command instead of using move or fast?

[JasonC]

A unit using "advance" is expecting to take fire. It is "tougher" in morale terms about the incoming, and less likely to panic. A unit on "run" is significantly more exposed to enemy fire. It can take up to twice the causalties per shot - they basically are making no use of cover.

A unit on "move" is not hyper-exposed like one on "run", but it also isn't "ready" to take fire, and will panic far more easily. In addition, any significant fire received while on "move" and in open ground (including steppe), will often result in the state called "cover panic" - the unit will change its waypoint to the nearest decent cover, and if the fire is heavy enough, go prone and reduce its speed to a crawl.

The way to advance under fire is to be in command, preferably of an HQ with morale bonuses, and to be using an "advance" movement order. Units in "advance" will tire more rapidly, however. Typically they will reach "tiring" within the first minute and "tired" if an "advance" move is sustained over two straight minutes.

Move in cover (e.g. a big block of woods - not that you have much in this scenario!), advance in the open, is a good rule of thumb. The idea being to be ready for fire when it can really hurt you, but without tiring the men out unnecessarily when the fire could be readily resisted.

Thus the right *order* is "advance", but the *distances* need to be kept manageable. A whole series of short advance "bounds", with rests in between, will cover ground with the least morale "pain". Especially if there are multiple units moving and the few available enemy shooters switch off between them - this will give time to rally as well as rest, during the pauses.

It isn't a race, it is a marathon. What makes a sustained infantry advance under fire work, is "rally power" - the total ability of all the different units to "snap back" from cautious and pinned results, given long enough, and taking their share of the fire at wide enough time intervals.

Another useful movement rate at times is "move to contact and hide". A unit on move to contact will halt as soon as it takes fire or sees an enemy unit. A unit with a "hide" order will try to hide at the conclusion of its movement - the next waypoint, or when it halts for "move to contact". Hiding can cause the enemy to lose track of your - the unit becomes a "flag" - if you are far enough away and in any kind of cover. Even rocky, e.g., can be enough the make them "lose" you.

Once enemy have been spotted, move to contact will just be ignored, you will remain stationary. The "and hide" trick can still work with "advance".

Also, note that conscripts cannot use the "advance" order, and greens need to be in command to do so. Many slower teams also can't use advance, and only have "move" and the slow "sneak" (crawling).

Another movement option for Russians only is "human wave". This is much like "advance" for the first 150 meters or so of the movement, then it will accelerate to "run" and they become more vulnerable. Conscipts can use "human wave". The command delay is longer.

Don't try to "human wave" directly onto unsuppressed enemy, it is pretty suicidal. But sometimes it can "ram" a portion of the attempting units into cover nearer to the enemy, allowing somone to get spots, etc. With other attempters scattered by defending fire, however. Use with caution.

Sneak is also useful for short distances. You will move only about 15 meters per minute and tire in about 5 minutes, but the exposure to enemy fire is significantly less. It is typically used to reach the nearest piece of cover after taking fire, or to make small repositioning within cover to make room for another unit, without bunching up too much, etc. Another advantage of sneak is that all unit types can use it, though heavy weapons are quite slow and may tire etc.

Learning "advance drills", as these are called - meaning the ability to move infantry in the open under fire - is a key skill that scenario is meant to teach.

[ March 13, 2008, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[GBolio]

Thanks again. I'll incorporate all of this when I try the scenario again and then let you know how it went.

[GBolio]

Well, your first method worked exactly how you said it would. Total victory, 86% to 14%. I was too slow, and only got the flag in the woods with a blind rush on the last turn. Luckily, nearly all his infantry in the woods was already routed by the Mortar fire. After about 15 mins, MG42s were non-factor as they were low on ammo, like you said they would be. Don't know if I'll try the other method now, as I want to get through the rest of the scenarios. Thanks JasonC.

[Kornstalx]

Ugh... after reading this post I decided to go and try your training scenarios as well. All it's taught me so far, is that apparently I've been playing this game all wrong for years...

I'm having considerable trouble with training #110, specifically.

Your advice above seems to be the answer I needed, the only problem is how to actually implement it. Keeping the troops spread out indeed helps greatly, but it's almost impossible to keep your HQ near all the troops doing this. And since you're forced to work with only Greens, I'm constantly finding myself in situations where I need a unit to advance and all I can do is 'move' it. Keeping them still on overwatch as an alternative is almost useless. (Maybe use Area Fire?)

The fine line between 'spread out', 'overwatch', and 'out of command' is extremely difficult for me to get right with these Greens. This whole 100 series debacle is making me want to stop playing entirely, out of frustration : /

All I can keep thinking is...

"My Kingdom for a Puma."

[ March 17, 2008, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Kornstalx ]

[JasonC]

110 is the one the most people reported difficulty with. Yes you can use area fire, especially once you spot the trench. Just don't spend all your ammo on it. Establish with a mad minute (singular) and then leave only one squad firing to slow rally.

Short advances, all available cover, no bunching up. If a squad is out of HQ range it can sit while the HQ moves, if it has cover it can hide, if it is near cover it can sneak - but do not "move". Losing one squad will not make the attack fail - losing two, will.

As soon as you get a full ID, go stationary wherever and pull triggers for 2 minutes. Then move out with 2 squads and get one into SMG range - about 70 meters - and that is usually enough to make them get up and run. If it isn't, close to grenade range with one squad and that will do it.

You cannot solve the problem by movement orders alone, that is the main lesson of the whole problem. It is not a race. The problem is not reaching the trench, it is reaching range to get an ID. Getting to range for an ID is about rally power through staggered movement, sharing out the pain over all your men. And about reducing the incoming via outgoing, which is the form of "cover" that really matters.

Fire is cover. In some others in the series, range is cover. Spotting limits are cover. Half the point, half the time, is to get rid of the crutch of always being in perfect cover. If you can't ever send your infantry into the open, your tactical options reduce flag racing in gamey MEs or winning the armor war, or stupid AI tricks. In other words you will be weak in everything and rely on luck or unforced enemy errors. If you can confidently attack with infantry, you are dangerous.

If you still can't do it, give the HQ a +1 morale bonus. If you still can't, make the men regulars. You should definitely be able to do it then. Me, I did it with greens the second time out, when making it. But it is the one case many others report finding truly hard, with only greens.

In the next you get a reduced company - 2 platoons of greens with minimalist support weapons - and it should be easy. Even though it is no longer a single shooter opposing you.

[GBolio]

Kornstalx - When I played this one, I spotted the trench, and then used sneek to move my squads into an arc roughly 100m from the trench, with narrow cover arcs placed over the trench. The MG spotted one of the squads, but once he fired I got a full ID and all the other squads opened up on him, pinning him instantly. I then moved a squad up into the cover in the pines to the left of the trench. Using the other squads to keep the MG pinned, I rushed this one to the trench and killed the MG. Suffered just one casualty.

[Leprechaun]

110 - You can move the whole platoon up to the fence line and the machine gun will not respond because it is facing the opposite direction. As soon as you move a unit past the fence line it reorients and fires but by then you will have an attacking squad placed in a crater near the trench and 2 supporting units providing suppressing fire. Then leapfrog your units closer to the trench using the craters. Once you get a unit within grenade range ~40 meters, you'll be able to panic the MG crew and win.

[ March 18, 2008, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Leprechaun ]

[Banjar]

Finally got decent result - only 3 KIA and a MAJOR vicory, capturing the first flag.

Thanks Jason C, a great lesson!

Used Move to Contact and Advance + Hide to move the center force (2 platoons) to the rough terrain to the right of the first flag with the company hq plus attached squads providing fire support and Sneaking into range to avoid getting ruined. Also used smoke in front of the wood area in the center to calm down the MGs while we go into position.

The platoon on the right made it to the house and woods on their side and were able to give support from there.

The platoon on the left moved only a short distance to the close rough and fired.

All the mortars expended everything.

The close support infantry guns were killed early by the AT gun, as in every previous try. They don't seem to last long in the open.

Managed to get to the center flag and rough terrain with 2 platoons plus the company HQ without much routing but could not advance further due to no remaining mortar ammo to support a fast advance and no time to do it slower.

The German counter attack cost them a lot as my forces were in decent cover.

Could have made it the rest of the way with more mortar ammo and ten more turns.

Thanks again, Jason C