Question for all modders

[lcm1947]

Is anybody working on a new Chaffee tank? This is the one tank that really could use an update. It really pales to most of the mods that we now have and it sure would be nice to get an improved one. I would do it myself but of course I can't so have to beg and plead with you that can. Anybody up to it? Just think you would probably have anyone using your mod if you did one. Well unless you screwed it up and it looked like one I would do. Don't make me offer money.

[lcm1947]

Gosh, I guess they all pasted away. What a shame. Oh well we all can't live forever.

[Dandelion]

Lee

Let me know if you come across such a mod please, I'd very much like one too. I'm very impressed by the Chaffee, in many ways. And so also feel she deserves a nicer dress than this.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[lcm1947]

I will Dandelion but the only thing out there right now is one by Tiger which was very nice for it's day but just really looks poor compared to the other more recent mods. It's color is off and no detail to speak of. Andrew was going to do one but then that stupid CMBB came out and he's all involved with that crappy game now.

Anyway maybe somebody will decide to do one and become the hero of the year or at least be considered a really good guy by me.

[mike8g]

Yes, Tiger's variant is the latest one.

Some days ago I made a graphical update for the roadwheels as shown in the pic below.

Marcus

[ June 07, 2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: mike8g ]

[lcm1947]

Yep, that's the one Mike8G. So you made a new road wheel mod for it? You said days ago? like how long ago? I can't remember who and it may be this mod you are talking about but it was made - what a year ago or more. Is that the one you are talking about? If so then I have it already and it did greatly improve the Chaffee but I would still sure love to see somebody do the whole tank again. Some color to maybe better match the Sherman's or Pershing tank by Andrew's color. It may not get done but hey you can't hang a guy for asking - CAN YOU? :eek:

[mike8g]

My update was done October 2001.

Based on a picture of a museum Chaffee. Unfortunately I couldn't get decent pictures from the other tank sides, so I had to bury the idea of making a photo-realistic one.

Marcus

[ June 07, 2003, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: mike8g ]

[Mr. Die Easy]

Hi,

Do you remember who gave us the great looking Lynx mod?

I have heard some rumours that the Lynx creator (the great MåkJager) is in the initial fase of upgrading the Chaffee.

At some point I promised him not to put too much preasure on him, so please be gentle with him. Give him alot of support - if he pulls out a Chaffee upgrade, it will be a true piece of art

Best regards

Mr. Die Easy

[lcm1947]

Hey thanks Mr. Die Easy for the info. Yes I am currently using several of his mods right now but didn't know he was doing a Chaffee. Great news and no we won't pressure him. The Irish are very sensitive and must have room for their drinking so we can't rush them. So we can wait patiently and not hurry him. Artist's must have their time - - - - - - - - - - - - HEY MAKJAGER! IS THAT CHAFFEE DONE YET?

[Dandelion]

LOL! You used to work as a manager, right Lee? You sound just like mine.

Some time ago a friend sent me a link to this homepage with Irish sayings. I have since decided that I really like the Irish. Only a nation of poets can appreciate a doorful of women.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[lcm1947]

Yes once upon a time I was a manager Dandelion but I didn't know it showed. Hey thanks for the Irish site. Pretty cool site, I've been looking at it for the past hour. Interesting stuff. A lot of the prayers and saying I've not seen before and am printing some of them off to learn. Appreciate it. Oh by the way what does that say beneath your signiture? :confused:

[Måkjager]

What was that old poster that used to be up on th walls of every factory / building and street corner..."Talk costs LIVES"...especially DANISH ONES !!!! hehehe

To confirm what my "old" Dansk friend has said..yes..i have begun some work on a M24 Chaffee. It is my first attempt at a Allied mod ( it also happens to be my fav allied vehicle too ). So far....no problems..but there will be one or two that will require a bit of time to overcome.

web page

So far....all i have done is some general layouts....gun mantle / gun ...lower chassie / forward hull..and some work on the rear deck.

Once again..these are only very early shots..and likely they will change oncei get into the flow of things.

Lately i have not had the energy or will to do any real modding as i have been trying to catch up with friends and family having spent crazy hours in front of my computer.

Theory is though..to try juggle mod work between my Pz II and the M24..switching between the two once i have come to a stop with one or the other.Thats the theory.

Fear not gentlemen.....you will have a new mod of a M24 sometime but only ( WHEN ITS FINISHED ).

best regards

Måkjager

[Mr. Die Easy]

When I saw those lost CMBO souls cry for some mod god to provide them with a new Chaffee I just had to give them hope....

MåkJager, that Chaffee will be another CMBO smash hit from you - I cry from happiness when I see those great pictures .

Thank you for your hard work (and patience )

The Dane

[Dandelion]

Very much looking forward to it McJagger, as I share your infatuation with this versatile and resourceful design. Keep us all posted please.

Lee,

""Die Toten bleiben tot, und die Siegreicher unter ihnen tragen keinen Stern."

[schröter, Kriegesberichterstaffel der 6. Armee]"

= "The fallen (will) remain fallen, the victorious among them (will) wear no star." Schröter, War Diary Staff Officer, 6th Army.

Its the concluding sentence of the war diary of 6th Army, you know the one destroyed at Stalingrad. In my opinion, no army ever had a more talented or sensitive biographer (is it called biographer when speaking of armies, in English?) than Heinz (Heinrich) Schröter.

The war diary was published by the end of the war. Its still available in reprint, with title: "Bis Zur Letzten Patrone" - "to the last cartridge". Co-writers are Gen Fangohr (Ia of 4 PzA), Gen Koller (Ia Luftwaffe), Gen Schulz (Ia Armygroup Don), Col Selle (Pionier chief of staff 6th Army), Lt Col Töpke (Qu I 6th Army). Maps used are 6th Army original reprints, including Stalingrad in detail. Photos used are from the Kriegsbildberichtern - war photo historian staff of 6th Army, including aerial recon photos. It is published with the help of a German industrialist who financed the print, who wish to remain anonymous, but "to whom the history of the 6th Army is not indifferent". Protocols from the radio logs, meeting protocols and issued orders, as well as more than 100 interviews with people ranging from field marshals to privates, are included. As in any decent war diary.

The complete finishing paragraph in his book, the 6th Army War Diary, is:

"Ewiges wird bleiben. [---]

Die Toten bleiben tot, und die siegreichen unterr ihnen tragen keinen Stern. Die Menschen werden weiter Unrecht haben, und, was besonderers schlimm ist, Unrecht tun. Daran wird sich nichts ändern. Es wird weiter das napoleonische Wort gelten, dass nur das sStarke gut sein kann, und es wird auich in Zukunft nie gut ausgehen, wenn der Himmel auf die Erde fällt.

Möge, der die Welt seinen Händen hält, dieses um der Guten willen noch einige Zeit hinauszögern. Sollte er aber für ratsammer halten, dem Rad des Schicksals einen schnelleren Lauf zu verleihen, so werden die Sterne, wenn die Erde in feuriger Gloriole ihre Gemeinschaft verlässt, ihr Schicksal nicht beweinen.

Und alles wird wieder sein wie am ersten Tag."

Right. Got it? Ok, kidding.

In amateur translation then (help me out here Andreas):

"That eternal will remain.[...eternal]

The fallen will remain fallen, and the victorious among them will wear no star. Man will again be in err, and, what's worse, act in err. It will never change. The Napoleonic code will remain true, that only Force is ever right, and the future will look everyway as horrible as our time, whenever the sky falls down upon the earth. [a reference to old Norse/Germannic mythos of Ragnarok, "when brother slays brother, kin slays kin, and heaven falls down upon earth" = war].

Might perhaps He, who hold Earth in his hands, [i.e. God] endeavour to percevere, for yet some time, with this. Should he however find it more fitting to turn the Wheels of Fortune a little faster, when yet again man casts aside brotherhood into the fire of 'Glory', no stars would ever mourn the loss.

And then everyting will, again, be as on the First Day.(...of Gods creation)"

This piece of text, finishing off a work describing the death of about 1 350 000 young men and God knows how many others, for no discernable reason as far as I am concerned (and Schröter makes it quite obvious he feels the same), has always been central in my life. Heinz Schröter helps defining the rage and sense of loss. As you are my elder, I would never push my morals in your face, yet I feel a need to explain them, as my signature is there to do just that.

My gran arrived in Hamburg the morning after the firebombing. All of her sisters in law had perished in the fires. She told me that POW British airmen were being forced to walk up and down the (former) streets of Hamburg to witness the charred bodies. She said the British - "the kids" as she called them - cried and tried to help. But received only beatings from their captors when trying. She said people tried to stop the beatings. Including her. In this one scene I define her whole attitude on war.

War is a natural disatser. As a commoner, you are caught in the flames. You did not start it, nor could you ever stop it. You and me Lee we live in democracies now - can you change anything? Could you have stopped any recent war had you really wanted to?

Thought not. Me neither.

When war comes, you might die, you might live. War does not ask what life you lived, if you've been a good or bad man, if you carried your own weight or was carried by others, nor if it comes inconveniently. Nor does it ask what you feel about it. Like an earthquake, it just comes and hits everybody. You have no real enemies, regardless of flags or uniforms, or notions of nationality. Its just you and a number of people trying to stay alive. Responsible are those who started it, and those unable or unwilling to stop it. All of them, every last one, be they "friendly" or "enemy".

Gran, like Mom, adored the British, and all things British. Yet both hated Chruchill (Mom still does), like they hated Hitler, like they hated all those who held young lives in their hands but could think of nothing better to do with them than to fertilise the already overfertilised European soil with them.

You're an ex-manager, sense of responsibility will be deeply buried in your spine by now. Look at any photo from the period. Just looked at a bunch of German Paras myself, standing in a heap smiling at me. Kids. "Blossom of German youth" Churchill called them. What could have been achieved, had they been allowed to build a better society? Or even been allowed to grow gardens. Yet all they could do in the eyes of their masters was to fight more of these endless f_ pointless wars, leading to nothing, achieving nothing.

Except the odd kick for some flagwaving retard, admiring their agonising deaths - the ultimate insult to the promise of their lost lives and to their wives and children left abandoned at home.

Heinz Schröter lend all of them words. In his description of the demise of the 6th Army, and the demise of the Soviet troops dying with them, as he writes they were all buried in the same holes anyway, he paints a picture of rage, loss and pain. He paints a picture of the deepest mistrust with the authorities of his age.

This is not uniquely German. The USA has astonishing works like "Thin Red Line" and "The Naked and the Dead" expressing the exact same sentiment. The British also know the pain. If any nation ever gave this pain eloquent expression, the British have. We need not go far into the obscurity of recognised literature, we can pick lyrics from a pop group like Pink Floyd.

...The rage against those responsible for loss:

"It was dark all around.

There was frost in the ground

When the tigers broke free.

And no one survived

From the Royal Fusiliers Company C.

They were all left behind,

Most of them dead,

The rest of them dying.

And that's how the High Command

Took my daddy from me."

...the rage against the contempt for life shown by all authorities regardless of "sides":

"It was just before dawn

One miserable morning in black 'forty four.

When the forward commander

Was told to sit tight

When he asked that his men be withdrawn.

And the Generals gave thanks

As the other ranks held back

The enemy tanks for a while.

And the Anzio bridgehead

Was held for the price

Of a few hundred ordinary lives."

...the disgust for the empty gestures of those who would call death anything but death:

"And old King George

Sent Mother a note

When he heard that father was gone.

It was, I recall,

In the form of a scroll,

With gold leaf and all.

And I found it one day

In a drawer of old photographs, hidden away.

And my eyes still grow damp to remember

His Majesty signed

With his own rubber stamp."

...The rage against He who never came home again:

"Daddy's gone across the ocean,

Leaving just a memory,

A snapshot in the family album.

Daddy, what else did you leave for me?

Daddy, whatcha leave behind for me?"

...The residual fear that never goes away, in the individual - or as an integral part in future civilisation and culture:

"Did you, did you see the frightened ones?

Did you, did you hear the falling bombs?

The flames are all long gone,

But the pain lingers on.

Goodbye, blue sky.

Goodbye, blue sky.

Goodbye.

Goodbye."

All very eloquently put in my opinion.

I believe that, left to his own devices, man loves his fellow man.

He can't help it.

Schröter - even while more pessimist - reminds me it is so.

The wonderful book of Weintraub ("Silent night") proves it was always so. When left unsupervised, German and British troops immediately started to fraternise. The authoritiees of both siders hated and feared it, and eventually stopped it. Had the men been left to their own devices however...

I believe that whenever in history it appears man does not love his fellow man, he is led astray by men irresponsible, incapable, ill matured, ill suited for leadership. Thus practically all of our leaders. Again, Schröter explains how it was always so.

I believe not in just or unjust causes. I leave aside as nonsense patriot and nationalist notions and any ideas of the individual decision having any effect on events.

I am sorry for my European, African, Asian and American brothers and sisters perished in insane aggressions of the past. I feel particularly bad about the untold cruelty and savagery that - sans forewarning - hit my brothers and sisters in Poland, the Ukraine, White Russia and Russia. I am sorry also for my family that perished in the course of the same events. I blame Hitler, but not him alone, but all of his time and the men responsible for it in all nations. I remain disaffected, distrustful, disillusioned about any kind of authority, anywhere.

I will never serve any nation as a soldier, and never have I. I have served the United Nations as a soldier. I might again some day. It is my one faith.

I detest them, the lot of them: Schröder, Blair, Bush, Chirac, Putin. Vance, Owen. Persson, Aznar. Et cetera. They are all mean and base charicatures of the leaders we might have had, had we deserved them. I bow my head only to Gandhi, to Aung San Suu Kiy, to Nelson Mandela. How many times must they persuade us we are more than we seem?

That, Lee, is my sig

Yours truly

Dandelion

[lcm1947]

Dandelion, Damn your signiture says all that? Humor aside ( which is what I resort to when confronted with something that - emotionally distrubs me and I have no response due to that emotion ) will just say thank you for your reply. I feel you will understand my lack of further comment. I will however say to you, well said.

[Michael Dorosh]

The English term I'm most familiar with is "war diarist", for what it's worth to you, in answer to your question.

"Chronicler" is a good substitute, also.

[Ales Dvorak]

Originally posted by lcm1947:

Gosh, I guess they all pasted away.

..on east front...

[Dandelion]

Thanks Michael

Yes Lee, I understand. Its a bit of a Panzerschreck backblast there I know, as you weren't really asking for the answers in extenso and was given no option to not hear them (er...read I mean). But as I wrote I thought what the hell, why not get a post where its all summized. I can always use it to link back if somebody in the future feels like, say, jumping on me for laughing at a movie or something.

As for the Chaffee... I read the account of how the French were able to paradrop ten of these machines into Dien Bien Phu in small parts, building ten completely operational tanks from a puzzle of parts, using nothing more than ordinary airlanding infantry field workshops. Paratrooped in the crews too and viola, a company of tanks operating. Now that design is a user perspective on usability.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[lcm1947]

So Ales Dvorak that is no excuse for not still doing great and outstanding mods for CMBO. I feel like a step child now-a-days because of that OTHER game. Yeah, Dandelion, scherck back blast summed it up nicely. For your own info however I didn't mind your post at all just didn't quite know how to respond not that it would have been negative or uninterested mind you.

[Måkjager]

The thing that blows me away in regards to the Chaffee is the damn small size of it.

I have a 1/35th scale model of a Pz II F beside a M-24 Chaffee..and they are *nearly* the same size..but the chaffee is MORE tank

Got to hand it to the Yankee engineers and designers..they sure knew how ( eventually ) to design a very good light tank.

Regards

Måkjager

[AndrewTF]

Måkjager, that Chaffee is looking great!

I tried my hand at an M24 mod a while back, but no matter what I did I just could not make the thing look good. Perhaps I started it too close to finishing my Pershing mod and got burned a little burned out... Either way I'll just sit back and wait for you to finish this one.

[lcm1947]

Hey Makjager that is looking damn good to me. The detail is already far better and you have just begun. This will be worth waiting for I just know it based on your other mods. So take your time and don't let those pesty mod sluts hurry you. :cool: They really should be banned from the board.

[Måkjager]

Below is a link to see the latest updated pix of the Chaffee. Found time to do some detailing of the rear lower hull , rear upper deck and some of the stuff around the forward hatches.

web page

More WIP pix will follow in due course.

regards

Måkjager

[Roster No. 228]

Dandelion:

That was one very fine post, where you explained in detail your signature. Made me think, think further than usual, which is why I very much enjoy something like the CM series. These wargames really give me an appreciation for the technical side of war during that time.

However, lost in the alternately strange and yet natural boy's joy of playing with my new toys (setting off virtual explosions, etc.), was the quintessentially uncodable "human" perspective to it all. I've always thought myself too enlightened to forget this primordial human dimension of war, whether I'm watching a movie or playing a game about war, but it's true that I do indeed forget, contrary to my conceit...and now I seriously wonder whether the arguments of people like former U.S. Army Col. Grossman about violent entertainment desensitizing, a la Pavlov's dog, people these days -- kids in particular -- might not be much more warranted than I'd previously given them credit for.

Like the author of the recent memoir "Jarhead" notes, even anti-war movies wind up inadvertently glorifying war. I was in Army infantry for two years back in '93 (I was still in basic training when already the word came down looking for volunteers to ship to Somalia right after basic training, in anticipation of operations avenging the infamous Mogedishu ambush), and I remember how half of us young kids were fairly middle-class, with middle-class values of fair-play, cooperation, etc. Yet despite our otherwise good-naturedness and comfortable upbringing, we had all very voluntarily signed up for -- let's face it -- state-sponsored murder. And about half of the training platoon immediately volunteered with raised right arms almost reminescent of That Salute, right on the spot, despite the Drill Sergeant's careful, solemn warnings, articulated twice, to seriously think things over before signing on the proverbial dotted line. The Drill Sergeant was an infantry combat veteran of Panama, so I was especially touched by his veiled attempts at issuing a "disclaimer" of sorts to us, his charges for that training cycle.

So what I'm getting at is, yep, for some reason, it'll never change (well, not at least until we give up red meat, I suppose!)...most young men will feel this need to go sail off to war, and there are older guys out there who will experience a "psychological need" to send them off to war....

Again, thank you for your post. All this talk about tactics and graphics and whatnot further abstracts from the really horrifying core character of all this...reminds me of author Mark Bowden's somewhat strange objection to "Black Hawk Down" the FPS as opposed to "Black Haw Down" the movie....