Looking for a few good men

[Fritz Lahm]

Hi

I/we am/are looking for a few good dedicated players for a meta-campain.

Please read the following posts from GM Tim (the head GM) and some other players that should help you better comprehend what the CMMC2v2 experience is all about.

Interested players should have a fair amount of time to devote, be interested in communiating on forums and ''living'' a CMBB experience thats more than just fighting bloody senseless battles.

[ September 07, 2006, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Fritz Lahm ]

[Fritz Lahm]

***CUT FROM THE CMMC2 FORUMS, WORDS FROM GM TIM***

CMMC2v2 is a meeting engagement between several Division/Corp sized units played out at an operational level and fought out at a tactical level. It is managed by several Game Masters (GMs) and played by several dozen players across the world.

CMMC is not your typical wargame. In fact, it’s not so much a game as an experience that uses a game to give it direction and focus. CMMC stresses teamwork and communication skills with many people located in many places and with many backgrounds. You will learn more than you ever thought about operational and tactical aspects of the Eastern Front. Some knowledge will come from within the game but a lot will come from associating with other people that have a lot of knowledge to share. The community aspects are one of the strongest attractions of CMMC.

CMMC is not for everyone. It is a long game that will require a lot of patience and stamina. It is not for people with short attention spans (or even medium attention spans). But you will not find another experience quite like this one.

I hope you join us and share in the experience that is CMMC.

Tim Doerr

Head GM CMMC2v2

[ September 07, 2006, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Fritz Lahm ]

[Fritz Lahm]

***CUT FROM THE CMMC2 FORUMS, WORDS FROM GM TIM***

There's a lot of new players recently joined so I thought I'd share a few observations from the years I've been involved with CMMC. These are all my opinions, of course, so take them as you will.

Tonight I'll start with communication.

Communication is the number one most important skill in this game. Sure, being able to play a good game of CMBB is important. Sure, being organized and able to shuffle paper is important (really, it is). And sure, coming up with an effective operational strategy is important.

But if you're not talking to your commander or even your fellow officers, how do you know what you're supposed to be doing in your CMBB game? How do you know that charging forward into the retreating enemy is the right thing to do?

And if you're not talking to your commanders or fellow officers, how do you know that you're "shuffling" the right papers?

And if you're not talking to your subordinates or your peers, then how do you know your operational strategy will work, is practical, or will even be executed?

This is a huge game. The top commanders need as much information as possible to make their decisions. And every player has unique information that nobody else in the game sees. If you don't feed it up the chain, no one will ever know it.

A correllary to all this is promptness. If you don't respond promptly to your fellow players (or worse, your GM), it's almost as bad as not answering at all. While the pace of the game may seem slow, their is a furious amount of work happening at all times, even among the players. Everybody is part of a chain, and every day you don't respond with the information or action, is another day the end result is delayed (or else goes forward without your input). And just because you can't see why it's important to respond, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

I'll close this little soap box (it's fun having a captive audience ) with an observation from CMMC1. During one battle, an entire BN of tanks was lost to an enemy ATG position. While there was some pretty poor CMBO play involved, the biggest crime by far was the lack of communication. The player never told his commander what was happening until the very end when he informed him he was dead. There was no chance for the commander to tell the player to back off, to reinforce the point that it's not that important a battle to lose that many tanks, etc. The commander sends the player off to battle with instructions. The next thing he learns is the entire BN is dead without any chance for him to do something or respond. How would you feel if that was you?

This game will be won or lost on communication.

[ September 07, 2006, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Fritz Lahm ]

[Tactical Command]

I recently checked out the website for CMMC2 and my main beef with it is that most potential players/members don't really know what they are getting into until AFTER they join up and choose a side to fight for.

I did find a MS Word doc file that tells you what to expect if you wish to become a god (a GM); however, I couldn't find anything for the most common type of player -- the Battalion Commander (the players that actually fight the battles using CMBB).

A game of this scope is going to have a lot of people dropping out no matter what the organizers do; however, I believe the dropout rate could be reduced if more information was provided to people before they actually signed up to play.

I was expecting to find some information on new recruit training and how the German and Soviet sub-forums actually work. I can't speak for other forum members here, however, I want to know exactly what I am getting into before I make a commitment to something like this. Why? Well, here are a two reasons:

* So I don't damage my reputation (i.e. TC quit on us during CMMC2, so, there is no way we are going to let him play CMMC3).

* So that I have better idea of the commitment this game is asking from me. I don't want to waste my time nor that of my trainer and other teammates.

[76mm]

I second TC's comments; this sounds potentially interesting to me, but without additional info I'm not really up for signing up an intensive experience and only then finding out that it is not really what I had in mind...the forum posts above are helpful, but what exactly would I be doing?

[Andreas]

I suggest posting your questions over at the CMMC2 forum, since there are probably people there who can answer them.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

Oh, and don't join the Germans.

All the best

Andreas

[Stndrtnfhr]

Anreas,

Why not the Germans?

Stndrtnfhr

[Fritz Lahm]

Forget Andreas and his anti-german rubbish, he's just hoping to get more fodder for his soviet horde.

No really, both sides are (i think, i can only speak for the german side) equally well staffed with dedicated players that want to have a fun game, choose any side you want.

All questions are welcomed and I (or other more seniior players that have been at it for a while now...) will be happy to answer when they get time off from the frontlines...

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Stndrtnfhr:

Anreas,

Why not the Germans?

Stndrtnfhr

Because it is much better to fight for the continued oppression through Stalin, err, liberation of the Rodina than it is to fight for the continued oppression of the Rodina by Adolf.

Should be self-evident Comrade.

With proletarian greetings,

Petrow, Major-General, Workuta Socialist Re-education Camp

[Fritz Lahm]

please log in to the cmmc2 forums if you are interested, there is more material that better explains the whole CMMC2v2 experience...

[ September 07, 2006, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Fritz Lahm ]

[Fritz Lahm]

Originally posted by Tactical Command:

I recently checked out the website for CMMC2 and my main beef with it is that most potential players/members don't really know what they are getting into until AFTER they join up and choose a side to fight for.

I did find a MS Word doc file that tells you what to expect if you wish to become a god (a GM); however, I couldn't find anything for the most common type of player -- the Battalion Commander (the players that actually fight the battles using CMBB).

A game of this scope is going to have a lot of people dropping out no matter what the organizers do; however, I believe the dropout rate could be reduced if more information was provided to people before they actually signed up to play.

I was expecting to find some information on new recruit training and how the German and Soviet sub-forums actually work. I can't speak for other forum members here, however, I want to know exactly what I am getting into before I make a commitment to something like this. Why? Well, here are a two reasons:

* So I don't damage my reputation (i.e. TC quit on us during CMMC2, so, there is no way we are going to let him play CMMC3).

* So that I have better idea of the commitment this game is asking from me. I don't want to waste my time nor that of my trainer and other teammates.

I understand. Most of the stuff concerning CMMC2v2 is readable once you log on to the forums (please do so and browse the forums)

sorry gotta go, more to come...

[Tactical Command]

Thanks for the additional info Fritz!

I already knew much of what you posted, even so, it was still an informative read.

Most of the stuff concerning CMMC2v2 is readable once you log on to the forums (please do so and browse the forums)

I may try registering at the CMMC2 forum later in the week. That said, I have feeling that doing so won't give me access to any additional "CMMC2 readable stuff" than I can currently access as a non-registered lurker.

Before CMMC3 starts up I think it would be a good idea if someone posted a sticky post in the recruiting forum titled "Here is what is required of you in order to be a CMMC3 Battalion Commander".

Below is a made up example:

----------------------------------------

Note: This document will be assuming you signed up to fight for the Germans. That said, everything mentioned within this document should apply to you if you decide to fight for the Allies.

Before signing up please visit the following web page http://..... and pick an appropriate forum nickname for yourself. Note: You may be asked to change your forum nickname if you decide to use a name that is commonly associated with a mass murderer.

Here is the following things you will most likely be doing after signing up.

* You will need to visit http://home.online.no/~paaar/ and download the Cocat program and manual.

* You will be reading any prior posts made by your teammates.

* You will be visiting the following German forums at least four times a week...

* The following are sample documents similar to the ones you will be reading when you join CMMC3. (insert the appropriate sample CMMC1 or CMMC2 documents here)

* If your training officer knows who you are your training MIGHT be minimal. The same will probably be true if join after the operation has already started. Otherwise, your training will probably entail the following ...

* ...

----------------------------------------

Well, I could on and on and on, however, I think everyone knows what I am talking about. Being told you will need to be dedicated and make a commitment is not the same thing as knowing what the details actually are before making a commitment.

With all the time and effort that has already been put into CMMC1 and CMMC2, I am somewhat surprised that nobody has already done something similar to my above suggestion already.

[Bonxa]

Here's one of the soviets!

I just wanted to clear up some things, Lahm. When you post citations of what others have written please indicate that. For a while I thought this was Head GM Tim doing promo under the name of Fritz Lahm, and only for the german side. I'm now on track but would you please write out in your above posts what are your own words and what are the words of GM Tim.

cheers!

[Fritz Lahm]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, you are correct Bonxa, ill try to clarifiy my posts...

[ September 07, 2006, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Fritz Lahm ]

[Fritz Lahm]

If you decide to join one side or the other, then you'll get access to more information on what the staff players from one side or the other expect from their players.

You may be correct that more information might be usefull to post on the CMMC2 webpages as well as on the forums...

[JasonC]

If any of this were about playing CM, and especially if any of this were about playing CM in a playable campaign, I'd be all over it.

But it isn't. Sorry guys, facts, stubborn, all that. It's about sending each other a lot of mail to jump through byzantine hoops constructed by control freaks who think it mimics military miscommunication or something.

Want proof? As for the AARs. Ask for the campaign narrative. Ask how many players have dropped since they starting taking applicants.

Some people may like it, fine, go do your thing. But nobody there should be surprised by the lackluster reception, and nobody here should worry about how much they are missing.

[Fritz Lahm]

How long did you play JaconC?

I'm not saying you have to give up tournament, normal PBEM games or QB's, BUT, some guys have been in CMMC since the beginning , so they must like something in it.

Anyway, your opinions are your own, and you are correct in that its probably not eveybody's cup of tea...some peple like to field 30 tigers vs 30 KV'2 in an open field and shoot for 3 minutes...me I like something more creative...

[JasonC]

I've run 3 CM campaigns, I know how much work it is and how much more realistic the fights can be. I also know what it takes to keep them moving and resolve even a single day of action. So I am tolerably familiar with the reasons why CMMC is broken and unplayable and doesn't move. And if you poked around these forums for oh I don't know, maybe 15 minutes you'd know how laughable your Tiger - KV comment is. Someone here is a CM rube, but it isn't me.

[Fritz Lahm]

I hear we're short of GM's maybe you should join and help out

No seriously, if its not your bag of tea, fine, maybe your more of a tactical player than a operational kinda guy, I dunno.

Anyhow, just thought the ''sending each other a lot of mail to jump through byzantine hoops constructed by control freaks who think it mimics military miscommunication or something'' comment was kinda out of place, but then again what would I know right?

[JasonC]

I just told you I have run 3 CM campaigns. I've probably done more actual operational CM than nearly everyone on this board. Your ignorance is quite touching, actually.

CMMC isn't really about CM, nor is it an operational layer for CM. It is the old command exercise system by written orders, results interpreted and relayed by referees - with a thin bottom layer of occasional CM, moving glacially. The CM part is the afterthought, the command-exercise order-writing and ref'ing the point.

[JasonC]

Now just for fun let's talk about how silly CMMC is, just because you've goaded me into it.

The first one failed completely after the GMs all dropped out because of the unlivable workload etc.

The new one features such wonderful operational critters as a Russian regular army consisting of 2 mech corps and 1 rifle corps. Bzzt, utter ignorance of Russian WW II operational organizations on display. Rifle armies had 6 to 12 RDs sometimes organized into 1-3 corps but some of them often independent, and at most one tank corps - not mech. Pairs of mech or tank corps went in tank armies, not infantry armies, with 2-3 tank plus 0-1 mech being typical. But TAs were not mixed into standard rifle armies, nor did TAs have rifle corps folded into them.

"But we wanted 2/3rds Russian mech, against a pure German PD corps (3 PDs)." Without, one might add, any German IDs within earshot. So you wanted something silly, OK, then you either have an infantry army with one tank corps and add a few independent tank brigades and regiments, or you have a tank army against a German panzer corps. For the mix aimed at the former would be better. But what are people supposed to learn about historical Russian operations from a game system that doesn't even know what actual operational organizations they used?

Then there is the fact that it has evolved all of four hours of game time. Ask them how many actual CM battles have been fought, commanded by how many players total.

As though commanding a CM force is what CMMC is about. But, um "many different aspects of military operations are simulated including players that fill roles in staff positions". Yes siree bob, you can play clerk to a mid level muckety-muck in a historically clueless sim of a fantasy-balanced unhistorical situation, that rides piggyback on the CM name to rope you in.

It is so great that CM players are all hanging out over at their forum posting their glorious AARs and the tips they've picked up about how combined arms really works under conditions of operational loss tolerance or lack thereof. Aren't they? Nobody is coming over here instead trolling for more players to flesh out the lower rungs, so the division command guys will have someone to order around, are they?

You asked for it bub. I gave an honest assessment for those who might not know better, you decided to go three rounds of ignorant abuse after being here all of four days.

[frankycee]

I'm guessing thats a no for the GM spot in CMMC3?

[JasonC]

But hey, I'm just getting started. Let's talk about how clueless and wrong the Russian TOE, doctrine discussion, and ridiculous German stereotype shinola about their supposed failings is. A mech corps is said to differ from a tank corps by swapping one of the tank brigades for a second mech infantry brigade.

Um, somebody is fixated on NATO force structures circa 1980 rather than Russian ones circa 1943.

A mech corps had more tanks than a tank corps.

It had 3 motor rifle brigades instead of 1, and 1 tank brigade instead of 3. But each motor rifle (technically, mech) had its own tank regiment. The real difference is that it therefore had more infantry, 10 battalion equivalents rather than 6.

Since a German PD had all of 4, this did not mean the Russians were much heavier in tank. If you include pioneer and recon as infantry type battalions, the German PD had 6, but the Russian TC had 8. The German SS PD (or GD which used the same pattern) had 9 or 11, which made it comparable to a MC in infantry weight.

The recon battalion of the TC is said to have 20 armored cars as though those were its only assets. Um, it is a motorcycle infantry battalion.

The Russian RD is said to lack heavy artillery "unlike the German ID". Um, it has 30 120-122mm artillery weapons and 36 76mm artillery weapons. They heavy caliber stuff is just split between div arty howitzers and regimental heavy mortars.

Also, the Russians had more heavy artillery than the Germans did - they just didn't allocate it to division level. Half the guns and the heavier half were allocated to army level as independent regiments. They were then assigned downward to divisions or regions as needed. The Russian divisional stuff only had the role the German 105s had - the role of the German 150s was played by army level guns.

There is a laughable comment that the Russian lack of artillery reflected industrial limitations. Um, the Russians outproduced the Germans in gun tubes by a huge margin, like 7 to 1. They always had more tubes. The Germans tried to get more out of theirs by some of them being more mobile (though the bulk were horse drawn) and by better ammo resupply and fire direction. The Russians put tubes wherever they could logistically speaking and then fed them for major offensives. Between those they were out of position and had to be laboriously transhipped by rail - the ammo not just the guns. Which was another reason to keep the heavy stuff at army - the divisions would advance out of their range zone etc.

Then the say the Russian infantry rode tanks due to lack of an infantry fighting vehicle - as though the Germans all rode SPWs. Um, around 1/6 of the German panzergrenadiers rode SPWs, while all the infantry proper walked. The other 5/6ths of the Pz Gdrs rode trucks. So did most of the Russian mech infantry - only a few battalions in each TC actually rode the tanks. Which they did for close cooperation with those tanks, not for lack of other transport.

Also, the Russians had numerous LL halftracks and scout cars, they just didn't use them to carry infantry into a combat zone. Because infantry dismounted to fight. Halftracks were used for command and as prime movers for their off-road ability and in the AA units. Scout cars went to recon, but only supplimented the main transport for those which was the motorcycle. (As it had been for the German scouts in the first 2 years of the war).

SPWs only became numerous on the German side in 1944. And the loss rates for SPWs were so low in major battles, they cannot have been used as in battle fighting vehicles when seriously opposed, with any frequency. They exploited, they did raids, they kept up with the tanks. But banzai charges in light armor were suicidal against any serious defense.

Then there is the comment about the Russians lacking any adequate ATG - along with the artillery being light comment. Um, there are 24 long 76s per RD, organic. A perfectly adequate ATG. The light 45s were effective from flanks, more so than CM shows, but that isn't the real issue. 76s were the basic firepower net. And the div arty ones were supplimented by as many again in motorized ATG formations, regiments and brigades. Which allowed any RD actually facing tank attack to double its 76mm "thickness".

The TOE of the tank corps is missing its heavy mortars, the basis of its artillery firepower. Also missing is the motorized antitank regiment, which fires direct as AT or indirect as 76m arty. Then they harp on how light the formation was in arty - um, yeah, if you just don't know what the organization was and drop the 2 main arty parts, it is little like taking PD and dropping the artillery regiment, and then noting that there aren't all that many guns at regiment level.

The people running this campaign don't know the Russian army in WW II from their anatomy. I have no doubt the Germans are better - though I'll wager they also are "mistaken up" to NATO like levels. Why does this happen? Because the types that think this way and write this sort of thing are reading a few cold war era doctrine pieces about the Russians, a modern American field manual, and von Mellenthin, and calling it WW II.

[JasonC]

frankcee gets my lurker of the year award - 4.5 years here and 19 posts. Now that's restraint! Kudos.