cbb Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 I've tried everything I can think of but I cannot get the Russian AI to fire artillery in the majority of scenarios I design... Presently I'm working on a scenario in which the Russian AI-side is assaulting. I have given it three artillery spotters, several target reference points, and placed the spotter in LOS of both the target reference points and enemy bunkers. Still no luck. Through 25 turns, the AI has yet to fire a single artillery round... I've read page 131 of the manual which talks about how long it takes for Russian artillery to fire and that "often their only useful purpose is in a pre-planned bombardment." But I know of no way for a scenario designer to designate a pre-planned bombardment for the AI side. Does that then mean that the game effectively has no artillery for the Russians when the Russians are the AI? ... Am I overlooking something here? CBB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Björn Eriksson Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 In quick battles, the AI will preplan bombardments only on units it can see in the first turn. Perhaps the bunkers you've placed are hidden by FOW? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 Originally posted by Björn Eriksson: In quick battles, the AI will preplan bombardments only on units it can see in the first turn. Perhaps the bunkers you've placed are hidden by FOW? In the editor I checked the LOS of the spotters and they all had LOS to enemy bunkers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Björn Eriksson Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Originally posted by cbb: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Björn Eriksson: In quick battles, the AI will preplan bombardments only on units it can see in the first turn. Perhaps the bunkers you've placed are hidden by FOW? In the editor I checked the LOS of the spotters and they all had LOS to enemy bunkers. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 Originally posted by Björn Eriksson: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by cbb: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Björn Eriksson: In quick battles, the AI will preplan bombardments only on units it can see in the first turn. Perhaps the bunkers you've placed are hidden by FOW? In the editor I checked the LOS of the spotters and they all had LOS to enemy bunkers. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Björn Eriksson Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 If you haven't already, I suggest you try playing the scenario from the russian side and verify that the bunkers are visible in the orders phase of turn 1. I'm not sure this is the problem, I'm only guessing here 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 Originally posted by Björn Eriksson: If you haven't already, I suggest you try playing the scenario from the russian side and verify that the bunkers are visible in the orders phase of turn 1. I'm not sure this is the problem, I'm only guessing here A good suggestion. I just tried it. Russian spotters have LOS to the bunkers in the orders phase of Turn 1. (They are less than 200 meters away). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 So let me ask this: Has anyone been able to design a scenario in which the Russian AI launches artillery fire prior to commencing an assault on German positions (say, within the first 10 turns)? If so, how did you do it? If not, it seems to me that CMBB has a major bug/omission. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucero1148 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Getting the AI to lauch a barrage or fire it's rounds during a game depends on target of opportunity from what I've experienced. Say you want the AI to commence a barrage at a start of a scenario. It has to have LOS of a suitable target (e.g. convoy of trucks) and the % of it firing a barrage is pretty high. The AI will fire off it's artillery later on in the game if it can pinpoint an enemy force long enough for it to bring its rounds on target. However if your ground forces rout the enemy force before the FO can hit the target the AI will cancel the firing order. That's my observation. All best Patrick 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 Originally posted by lucero1148: Getting the AI to lauch a barrage or fire it's rounds during a game depends on target of opportunity from what I've experienced. Say you want the AI to commence a barrage at a start of a scenario. It has to have LOS of a suitable target (e.g. convoy of trucks) and the % of it firing a barrage is pretty high. The AI will fire off it's artillery later on in the game if it can pinpoint an enemy force long enough for it to bring its rounds on target. However if your ground forces rout the enemy force before the FO can hit the target the AI will cancel the firing order. I've experienced the same -- with the result that in many scenarios the AI artillery doesn't fire at all. This means: 1) Designing a very basic scenario in which the AI side is supposed to assault a hill following a smoke/artillery bombardment simply isn't possible with CMBB's existing scenario editor; and 2) Designing a balanced scenario containing artillery in which either side can play against the AI isn't possible because the human player can utilize smoke/artillery bombardment whereas the AI cannot... This is disappointing. Allowing scenario designers to designate AI smoke/artillery bombardments has been around in games like Steel Panthers since 1995. I'm really surprised that CMBB omits such a basic feature. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 cbb -- Those aren't concrete bunkers you were using, were they? If they were, perhaps substituting softer targets would help. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 or putting in more powerful caliber FOs... it could be that the ai is saying 'can't kill those so won't fire a barrage' or at 200 meters it's saying 'too close so no barrage' try larger caliber and more spotting distance. it could also be that if the ai gets a chance it will drop a barrage on something later... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomonyou Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 I have had the AI F(*& me up good with artillery. It doesn't happen too often, but I have certainly had it happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 Originally posted by Mud: cbb -- Those aren't concrete bunkers you were using, were they? If they were, perhaps substituting softer targets would help. No, they're wooden. But the Russian AI has tanks which destroy them very quickly. (I still think bunkers and ATGs are WAY too easy to spot in this game, even with extreme FOW, but that's another issue). Perhaps the bunkers are being destroyed before the AI spotters can call in artillery strikes against them... My complaint is this: why does the AI have to have LOS to an enemy unit before firing artillery/smoke? A human player doesn't have the same restriction. If I'm attacking a hill with flags on it that I KNOW has enemy units, I'm quite likely going to do a pre-planned bombardment with artillery and smoke regardless of whether I can see an enemy unit or not. The AI can't do this and the scenario designer has no way of making the AI do it... About 90% of my playing time with CMBB involves designing my own (historically-based) scenarios for play against the AI. For me, this is by far the biggest flaw in the game. [ February 23, 2003, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: cbb ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Would giving the AI a TRP and locking it into place do any good? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 2) Designing a balanced scenario containing artillery in which either side can play against the AI isn't possible because the human player can utilize smoke/artillery bombardment whereas the AI cannot...This is a fundamentally wrongheaded idea in CM. The nature of the game and the AI do not lend itself to making one battle suitable for head to head and solitaire play from both sides. In fact, I suggest one does not even attempt it. When I design battles (and I have done a few here and there) I make them to work one way--H2H, allied, axis, etc. If they happen to work other ways, great. If not, no loss. Remember that the AI is generally a piss poor attacker, especially when it comes to coordination which is exactly what you are demanding. You will be better off making the battle single player as soviet or head to head. One other trick to get the AI to prebombard bombard--try padlocking the FOs out of LOS. That has been known to work. WWB 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 wwb posts: "This is a fundamentally wrongheaded idea in CM. The nature of the game and the AI do not lend itself to making one battle suitable for head to head and solitaire play from both sides. In fact, I suggest one does not even attempt it. When I design battles (and I have done a few here and there) I make them to work one way--H2H, allied, axis, etc. If they happen to work other ways, great. If not, no loss." I agree with you and my scenarios are usually designed to be played as one particular side against the AI. I'm just pointing out that the inability of scenario designers to assign pre-planned artillery bombardments to the AI means that even if one wanted to attempt to design a scenario playable from both sides, this is (another) major obstacle... wwb: "Remember that the AI is generally a piss poor attacker, especially when it comes to coordination which is exactly what you are demanding. You will be better off making the battle single player as soviet or head to head." What I'm talking about is certainly nothing overly sophisticated in terms of "coordination." I'm talking about the AI bombarding a position with smoke and HE and then attacking. That's pretty basic stuff. It's certainly a shame if it's not possible to design a scenario in CMBB as simple as that. Again, the first edition of Steel Panthers (in 1995!) allowed scenario designers to assign targets for the AI. (Later versions, SPWW2 and SPMBT, expanded on this, allowing the designer to designate artillery fire over multiple turns). I would have thought that CMBB, being a much more sophisticated game than SP, would have included this... wwb: "One other trick to get the AI to prebombard bombard--try padlocking the FOs out of LOS. That has been known to work." Okay, I'll give that a try. Up till now, I've been doing just the opposite -- trying to put FOs in LOS of enemy units under the assumption that they will call for strikes only on units they can see. [ February 23, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: cbb ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 Originally posted by Sergei: Would giving the AI a TRP and locking it into place do any good? I've tried giving the AI multiple TRPs with LOS to the FOs. That hasn't worked so far. (I've also tried making the FOs "elite" -- also without success). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchildstein (ii) Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 if you want the soviet ai to open on turn 1 up with a bombardment on a certain area, put axis trucks or unarmored halftracks into los instead of mg bunkers. in other words put as many 'hidden' axis as you'd like to in that area, but also put a couple of trucks and/or halftracks 'in plain sight' so as to get the soviets to 'hit' there right away. it might work. it has been my experience at least that if an ai FO has los to a truck or halftrack at the opening, there is definitely an 'opening barrage.' admittedly this was when the ai was set to 'defender' in the parameters (axis probe). i've definitely seen the ai drop artillery in the middle of a scenario... just last game i thought my attack was going 'swimmingly' within a certain 'sector' when a couple of ai 120mm mortar FOs - ones i'd long since forgotten about - dropped their payloads smack dab in the middle of an infantry company and some open-topped afvs... i have to admit that when the ai actually does drop artillery and it inflicts some casualties... it's one of the more 'competitive' moments i've experienced against my 'witto ai fwend' once i started a thread in the scenario design section about exactly how to get the ai FOs to drop their payloads... no one responded then so i'm glad to see a renewed discussion about it. i agree with wwb_99 that a scenario should be designed for one of 3 methods of play: axis vs allied ai allies vs axis ai head to head some people do a fairly good job though of getting at least 2 of these 3 to work without experience or force level modifications. i don't even bother trying... the idea of putting the FOs out of los at the start - in order to get a prep barrage - is another one i haven't experimented with too much... will have to look into it... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbb Posted February 24, 2003 Author Share Posted February 24, 2003 manchildstein II posts: "if you want the soviet ai to open on turn 1 up with a bombardment on a certain area, put axis trucks or unarmored halftracks into los instead of mg bunkers. in other words put as many 'hidden' axis as you'd like to in that area, but also put a couple of trucks and/or halftracks 'in plain sight' so as to get the soviets to 'hit' there right away. it might work. it has been my experience at least that if an ai FO has los to a truck or halftrack at the opening, there is definitely an 'opening barrage.' admittedly this was when the ai was set to 'defender' in the parameters (axis probe)." So in a scenario designed for the human player to hold fixed positions atop a hill -- say, with trenches, bunkers, mines, and wire -- I've got to place some trucks right in the middle of that stronghold??? I'll try but you have to agree that that is VERY unrealistic... manchildstein II: "i've definitely seen the ai drop artillery in the middle of a scenario... just last game i thought my attack was going 'swimmingly' within a certain 'sector' when a couple of ai 120mm mortar FOs - ones i'd long since forgotten about - dropped their payloads smack dab in the middle of an infantry company and some open-topped afvs. i have to admit that when the ai actually does drop artillery and it inflicts some casualties... " I've experienced that as well. In a scenario I'm trying to do presently, the AI finally launched an artillery strike on Turn 26 (of a 35 turn scenario). What prompted the AI to finally fire on Turn 26, I have no idea. The battle had been raging for at least 15 turns prior to that... I don't know whether this is a bug or simply a major omission. Either way, it's a big problem for those of us who enjoy designing scenarios. Either the AI needs to be programmed to fire pre-planned artillery strikes on its own or, better yet, the scenario designer should be allowed to designate pre-planned artillery strikes in the editor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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