Smoke Mortar Question

[CKibler]

Situation: Assume you've got an 81mm Btln Mortar FO, with (say) 200 rounds of ammo, and another FO with access to (say) 80 rounds of 105.

Question: Just how "gamey" is it if you use all (or almost all) 200 rounds of the 81mm to drop smoke? Would a typical btln-level mortar battery have had access to 200 smoke rounds? If you think the battle size/type is pertinent to this, assume you're attacking in a 1500-pt "attack/defend" QB.

Your thoughts are humbly solicited.

[c3k]

CKibler:

I would assume it's not "gamey" at all. Who's to say there wasn't a stock of smoke rounds ready for that offensive/defensive action?

Off topic, prompted by your sig: very nice job on the GCACW series maps. Works of art.

Thanks,

Ken

[CKibler]

posted by c3k:

I would assume it's not "gamey" at all. Who's to say there wasn't a stock of smoke rounds ready for that offensive/defensive action?

Certainly this could be true for a pre-planned attack.

Off topic, prompted by your sig: very nice job on the GCACW series maps. Works of art.

Thanks. As you probably know, I only did the maps for the first 2 or 3 games in the series. Kurt Miller did the maps for the last games. It was always a pleasure to work with Joe Balkoski on those games.

[Mr. Tittles]

If you search under White Phosphorous in CMAK threads, there should be a thread that lists US stocking of smoke for 81mm mortar. The US 4.2 inch would stock at 50% and the 81mm at about 20 to 25% I believe. The US may not have had a 60mm smoke round till late in the war.

Clearly, the ability to call smoke/HE in whatever quantities you desire is a gamey thing and quite unrealistic. Its a game limitation.

Perhaps if FOs were purchased so that they could ONLY fire either smoke or HE, it would be a better abstraction of sorts. Not entirely realistic but much less gamey.

I think the players knowing the exact number of rounds isnt quite right either. Unless the battery was dedicated only to the player, it would not be known. I think there should be be some kind of slider showing relative amounts of ammo left. Also having the battery being unavailable (especially for non-battalion assets) would put a twist on the player.

Hopefully, the arty part of CMXX+ will be updated.

[Mr. Tittles]

Another abstraction could be a chance of losing the 'smoke' command on any turn where smoke has landed for a full turn. This could be based on stock numbers. Example: 4.2 inch having a smaller chance of losing smoke than 81mm.

[MOS was 71331]

In the CMAK tutorial scenario, some of the Brit vehicles are shown as having smoke mortars. Are these mortars only controlled by the AI? I can't find a command for these vehicles enabling me to place smoke anywhere.

I'm guessing these smoke mortars are like squad Panzerfausts in CMBO. All you can do is place the smoke mortar equipped vehicle in a position where you believe its smoke would be useful and hope the vehicle takes the hint. I've been disappointed many times in CMBO when I've had a Kraut squad within 10-20 meters of an allied AFV and it wouldn't take the easy shot.

[ December 10, 2003, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: MOS was 71331 ]

[tar]

Vehicle smoke mortars are contolled by the TacAI, not the player. They will fire only as part of a retreat in the face of a serious antitank threat. I'm not sure if this is only a vehicle threat, or if AT guns will also trigger vehicle smoke use. I'm fairly sure it will never be fired in response to an infantry threat.

The vehicle smoke is not designed to provide a screen for other tactical purposes. It is solely a self-defense mechanism.

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by MOS was 71331:

In the CMAK tutorial scenario, some of the Brit vehicles are shown as having smoke mortars. Are these mortars only controlled by the AI? I can't find a command for these vehicles enabling me to place smoke anywhere.

Just out of curiousity, were you born in CO?

[MOS was 71331]

No, I wasn't born in Colorado. My USAF father was assigned to Ent AFB in Colorado Springs after his 3-year tour in London. I liked the area and stayed.

[Mr. Tittles]

Different types of ammunition will be used while in different

terrain. In rolling country more mortar will be used while in mountainous

terrain most expenditures will be small arms and grenades. Likewise

fighting in towns will require more grenades and caliber .45 and 81mm

mortar HE heavy than fighting in open country.

This regiment carries the TBA prescribed load with the weapons. On

the regimental train, the six, 2-1/2 ton service company 6x6. Following

is the load carried:

Type Number of Rounds

Cal. .30 carbine 33,000

Cal. .30 Ball 8 rd clip 61,824

Cal. .30 Ball 5 rd clip 30,000

Cal. .30 Machine Gun 72,000

Cal. .50 Machine Gun 1,325

Cal. .45 10,000

60 MM HE 972

81 MM HE light 900

81 MM HE heavy 150

81 MM HE smoke 150

Grenade, hand offensive w/fuse 250

Grenade, hand fragmentation 750

Grenade, rifle HE AT 300

Rocket, HE AT M6A2 200

Signal Air Craft 120 rounds each color,

red, green, and white.

[tar]

I'm really surprised that they carried more rifle ammo than MG ammo.

:eek:

[Mr. Tittles]

According to this report, one out of 8 81mm were stocked smoke rounds.

This is just a regimental dump. Ammo was stocked at the weapons and usually nearby also. There would be division dumps, etc all the way back to the beaches where the stuff was unloaded.

[Mr. Tittles]

Originally posted by tar:

I'm really surprised that they carried more rifle ammo than MG ammo.

:eek:

Not if you divide the number of MGs and rifles into amount of ammo. There are more rifles than MGs. Also, BARs are eating into those numbers.

[Mr. Tittles]

During the night prior to the assault on the RAPIDO River, we moved

the regimental ammunition train to a point about 600 yards south of SAN

MICHELLE and unloaded it, making a ground dump. The trucks returned to

the service company bivouac area which was in the vicinity of SAN VITTORE.

Stocks were built up the following nights and maintained at the following:

150,000 to 200,000 rounds caliber .30 machine gun;

75,000 rounds 8-round clip;

35,000 rounds carbine;

25,000 rounds caliber .45;

1,500 rounds 60mm mortar;

1,500 rounds to 2,000 rounds 81mm mortar light;

600 rounds 81mm mortar smoke;

1,000 rounds hand grenade fragmentation;

500 rounds hand grenade offensive;

150 smoke pots W.P. [white phosphorus];

200 rounds hand grenade yellow;

300 rounds signal air craft, each color;

This is an example of another dump. Again, the 81mm smoke is a minority item.

[tar]

Not if you divide the number of MGs and rifles into amount of ammo. There are more rifles than MGs. Also, BARs are eating into those numbers.

Even so, I would expect that the MGs would fire a lot more rounds than all the rifles put together. My impression is that the machine guns were the major sources of squad and platoon firepower, not the rifles.

But I forgot about the BARs. But I don't really see where the ammo for the BAR might be. The 8-round clips are for the M1. The carbine ammo is for the carbines. I don't know what the 5-round clips are for. There doesn't seem to be any loose rounds except maybe the MG ammo.

[YankeeDog]

Mr. Tittles -

Thanks for those regimental dump figures. They are interesting to look at.

One important thing to keep in mind when looking at these ammo dump figures is that considerable amounts of ammo of all types, small arms right on up to large caliber arty, gets used in engagements that you don't typically see in CM. This is *especially* true of Artillery rounds, which gets used for harrasing fire, interdicting fire, counterbattery fire, mortar 'stonks' on likely enemy assembly areas, etc.

The point is, even assuming that the proportion of smoke vs. HE shells in the regimental dumps are an accurate reflection of overall usage. they're not necessarily indicative of proportional ammo usage in a CM-type situation.

Oh, and the only thing I can think of for the 5-round clips is that there were for Springfield rifles, which were used right up to the end of the war for scout/sharpshooters. The proportion seems high, though (by 1944, only one solider in every platoon should have been carrying a Springfield).

Cheers,

YD

[Mr. Tittles]

YD

Some good observations.

But the second dump I posted is one that was moved forward for an assault.

The mortars would normally stock ammunition at the gun, nearby in bunkers (for safetys sake, away from gun crew and other personnel), at a battalion dump perhaps and the regimental dump.

So depending on the type of CM situation, the availability to even fire whatever type of 81mm mortar rounds in the scenario length could be questioned.

Mortar rounds, by the way, take up a lot of truck space. Dumping them and preparing them to fire takes time.

I would venture a guess that 81mm smoke rounds were not a predominate type at the forward areas. I base this on readings that state the 81mm WP smoke was much heavier than the 81mm HE light (the most common round). The 81mm smoke was actually closer in weight to the 81mm heavy HE round. In fact, the US 81mm halftracks supporting armor prefered to load out heavy HE and WP.

Lets take a meeting engagement. US armored cavalry forces are clashing with a german lightly held town. The US player has offboard 81mm (representing 81mm halftracks but since the forces are not armored, they are mostly loaded with 81mm light and few smoke rounds).

In this case, its very gamey to drop ALL smoke rounds from the 81mm. Its really more unrealistic more than gamey.

Lets take the case of the assault battle from the RAPIDO river where I posted the dump info. Theres 600 81mm smoke rounds plus whatever is forward by the guns, etc. In this case, a larger percentage of smoke rounds could be delivered, but since many smoke rounds are at the dump, it would still be questionable.

I still think dedicated FOs for ammo type are a good abstraction. I guess we will have to wait for CM++ to bring an answer.

[CKibler]

Originally posted by Mr. Tittles:

I still think dedicated FOs for ammo type are a good abstraction. I guess we will have to wait for CM++ to bring an answer.

Personally, I'd like to see each FO rated for "x" number of rounds of each available ammunition type; e.g., 40 smoke, 160 HE. I mean, after all, the game already keeps track of each infantry and armor unit's ammunition type, and you already specify whether you want smoke or HE fired.

Firing all rounds available (200, frequently, for 81/82 mm mortars) as smoke, to me, smells suspiciously "gamey". ...and I confess I've been guilty of such usage numerous times -- though, honestly, I'd not really thought about it much before; when I'm given (or buy) 81mm FOs, I consider them my smoke screen producers! Against a dug in enemy, it's frequently hard (for me, anyway) to resist using all rounds as smoke to cover the advance of my vulnerable units.

Moral: It would be nice if this detail were attended to, if not in a patch for CMBO/BB/AK, then in the next iteration of the game system.

Just my 2cents.

[Mr. Tittles]

Depending on the size of your force, knowing how many arty rounds you have is very unrealistic.

Lets take the Bn level 81mm mortar platoon. You have a FO assigned. You are leading a company probe. Is it realistic that ONLY you would get the rounds available? Even if the game tracked ammo types for indirect fire, would you know how many of each there are?

I think the game should model communications breakdown, battery assigned elsewhere, distance from battery to target (and shell descent angle), etc. But I would not expect any of this till C++.

Right now, I feel a simple abstraction, like the dedicated FO only firing either smoke or HE, rights many wrongs without turning over the apple cart. But I get the feeling that CMAK, unless something is totally broken will get MAYBE one update and thats it. In other words, what you see is what you get. And believe me, as many people like unrealistic and gamey things because winning is priority one to them and everything else is annoying grogs bleating.

I think good game design knows when to abstract and when to analy detail the slightest minutia. In the case of WWII armor, even the tank commander may not know the exact number of all shell types in his tank (maybe before a battle but once the spit hits the spam, he wouldnt). Why the player gets to know strikes me as odd.

The artillery model in the game seems to be the one that has been updated least. From what I understand, pre-planned barrages were added and not too much else.

[Mr. Tittles]

Heres a wish list for future games (CM++ or whoever):

1. Calling for rounds per gun. The current method of firing for one minute can be wasteful and unrealistic. Once spotting rounds have been expended,it would be nice to call '4 rounds HE', each tube then delivers 4 rounds.

2. Mixing smoke/HE. Very realistic in the case of US 4.2 inch mortar.

3. Effects dependant on artillery range. The velocity used/angle of descent could be a major factor in the effect of the artillery. Also counter battery fire effects could play in.

4. Rounds tracked like they are in vehicles but this knowledge reported to player depending on FOW option used. This way, full, partial, foggy information about the number of rounds left gets factored into the game.

5. Artllery fragmentation effects not based on circular models.

6. Sheafs, TOTs, etc

[Mr. Tittles]

I would also like:

1. FFE, medium, harrass. Basically FFE is fast and harrass is slow. So if I have a juicy target, infantry attacking through woods, I can call a FFE. If its a probable target, I can call a harrass mission.