The best offense is a good defense

[chief16]

I just played the von Lauchert mission as Axis and achieved what I think are great results. I positioned 12 of my Panthers along the near ridge and thus had a view of most of the field. As these tanks provided cover, I advanced 3 panthers up the right side and 8 up the left side (these were transporting a platoon of infantry). These two advancing groups eventually took the streambed objective and provided more accurate fire, so that I could hit pretty much anything the Soviets sent at me. My final tally in the AAR was:

Axis Statistics

Men OK 288

Total Casualties 1

KIA 0

Vehicles Destroyed 0

Points

Flags Held 900

Enemy Casualties 5829

Allied Statistics

Men OK 245

Total Casualites 191

KIA 57

Vehicles Destroyed 53

Points

Flags Held 0

Enemy Casualties 45

This was all due to the fact that most of my Panthers didn't even advance, but simply held a ridge in my rear area and provided continuous bombardment of the enemy. As a result, my flank movements never even came under fire, and there was no opportunity for infantry fighting. Can anyone share their tactics for this battle? Oh yeah, if anyone wants screen shots or the save game, let me know.

[Bone_Vulture]

Screenshots would be nice...

[chief16]

Sorry, these aren't the best screenies in the world. If you want to see something specific, just give the word.

http://www.freepichosting.com/Album/?113662.html

[Bone_Vulture]

Ok, so you demonstrated the efficiency of the overwatch tactic.

[88mm]

Pretty boring map too; is it a historicle ?

[stikkypixie]

12 panthers????

What did the ruskies have?

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by stikkypixie:

12 panthers????

What did the ruskies have?

I believe a platoon of T26's and a BT5 with a bad attitude!

Regards

Jim R.

[Sedan Delivery]

This is meat and potatoes stuff as the axis , try

the Russky view

[stikkypixie]

I believe a platoon of T26's and a BT5 with a bad attitude!

Only when they have enough wodka and too few JS2 and T-34's!

[JasonC]

12? He said 12 on overwatch, 8 up one flank and 3 up the other. That is 23 Panthers. Nice if you have them. Not fun to take on.

[Guest Mike]

The Russians have (approximately) 30 T34/76's, 10 T70's, 4 Churchills, some Su-122's, Pz-4 F1's and Shermans for a total of 63 tanks...IIRC.

[Bone_Vulture]

You mean... 63 tanks that all have no chance of penetrating Panther front armor?

[JasonC]

Here is how you fight 23 Panthers like a mid war Russian. Especially if they try to sit and peck away at you from a stationary, distant overwatch position. I give them attack odds, but not "flicted" force selection on the Russian's part.

To fight 23 Panthers, take -

2 IL-2M model Sturmovik (regular)

2 203mm FO (regular)

4 152mm FO (green, gun-howitzer)

Many TRPs (9 e.g.)

4 SU-152

6 T-34/76

4 57mm ATG

12 76mm ATG (ZIS-3 model)

I assume the Germans also have infantry, and you have infantry, fortifications, etc to match them. The "dual" nature of your forces above - powerful in the HE, soft target war - force the Germans to get a lot out of their Panthers or they lose.

Your AFVs and most of your ATGs are to deal with the closing half, not the overwatch half, of the Panther force. Place the 57mm ATGs individually, in a forward screen. They want cross fire on closers, or point blank front shots (200m) if their local threat comes straight over the gun position. Don't try to use 45mm for this - against 30mm side vanilla AFVs maybe, but even with APCR they won't cut it against Panthers. Basically these go right with the infantry or just behind the foremost infantry positions.

Your "vanilla" 76mm guns go in 4 gun batteries, and the T-34s in 3 tank platoons between them. Cross fire and hail fire are their two means of fighting. The ATGs stay hidden as long as possible and the T-34s stay in full defilade until enemy tanks are close by. Try to open with at least one Panther flanked. You can continue against a second via "hail", with 3-4 shooters per target. (It typically takes 10-15 hits to get damage without penetrations).

Late in the day you can try chucking ATG "hail fire" at distant "overwatch" targets, a full battery at a time, going for gun damage and track immobilizations. But there is no point in wasting ATGs on that before everything else has thinned the Panther horde. Beyond about 1000m, if you hide or get pinned they can lose sight of you sometimes, assuming you are in woods.

The SU-152s fight strictly by shoot and scoot, in pairs, over crest lines and around buildings etc. You want to engage a single enemy by differential LOS, typically the lead vehicle on one side of the map. At 1000m the 152 will kill with anything but a glacis hit, which means roughly half the time (all from a flank).

Single SUs aren't enough because the first shot hit chance is too low to justify your own risk. If you are around long enough for the enemy to get a second, you are toast. Don't go after the enemy overwatch with these, not until they are down to dregs - a whole platoon firing at once will KO you easily.

The biggest killers of distant stationary Panthers will be the Sturmoviks. Even with 23mm, they can break tracks and get top partial pens on strafing runs, either of which can make the crew bail. In the meantime, if they just sit there put the big arty on them in pairs of FOs firing at TRPs. You will get TC-shocks (when they start open), gun damage, and track hits, one every minute or two. The 203s are particularly good at it, dribbling in 4 shells every other minute for a long time. Don't rush.

In a couple of tests I just ran with the anti-overwatch part of this force (IL-2s, FOs, and for icing one battery of 4 76mm guns thrown in late, vs. 12 Panthers 1500m away just behind a ridgeline), they did very well against the Panthers when those stood still, and decently against them when they closed. Very well means - after 20 minutes, 11 Panthers were abandoned and 1 was immobilized. Decently means - 3 Panthers were fully functional, 4 were immobile or gun damaged, 5 were abandoned. I lost the 4 guns, with crew casualties of only 3-5 men and in the closing case 5 prisoners.

If you don't give the Panthers armor to chew on, in other words, you can "bother" them for ages and rack up damage. They won't hurt FOs firing at TRPs, which can be anywhere on the map (they don't even need LOS). They won't hurt Sturmoviks. The ATGs they can only hurt when you decide to use them up to take your shots, and typically you lose the gun but can withdraw the crew, mostly alive, if the position has a covered exit.

If they don't want to sit to be pounded by the arty, they are welcome to close with their flanking brethren. That draws them into the ATG and AFV defense zone. The farther forward they come, the more flank shots appear. Target your big arty at the nearest TRP, using target wide if there isn't anything terribly close. You will at least hurt their accompanying infantry. One adjust away from a TRP you can get in 5 minutes. Place the last "tier" of them so that will be close enough to cover your own defense zone.

They will kill whatever you sacrifice to them from your stock of 57s and 76s. The 57s just want to take one tank with them apiece. The 76s (including T-34s) need a chance at 2 (for 4 ATGs or 3 T-34s) to be worth losing. When in doubt, wait a turn and make 'em come closer. Only your most distant 76 battery should have LOS to the German "backfield" - the rest all want to be in the gullys and behind the treelines, etc.

Then you run him out of tanks, or he stops pushing at some point to stem his losses. You can also shred his infantry with all your HE, and keep infantry control of areas of heavy cover. (Pioneers help on that score - your only good close range infantry AT).

Here is how you *don't* fight 23 Panthers - take 60 T-34s and run out into the open aka commit suicide.

[stikkypixie]

What about AT-mines, they should have some limited use?

[Caronte]

The Von Lauchert is no chance for russians anyway:

-This is a Meeting engagement. There are no mines, no pillboxes, no trees... There's nowhere to hide, except a not so deep stream in the middle of the map.

-Only the first 3 platoons of T34 and maybe the Su122 and SU152 could do their way there. (T70 are not considered; I usually sacrifice them to ensure the most of the previous tanks arrive safe to the stream). You can display an ambush with about 15 medium tanks (the most regular and some green/veterans).

-The reinforcementes are released when the Panthers arrive so close to ensure the most of the russian reinforcements to be destroyed just in a moment if they show their mouth. I usually put them just after the hill on the right.

-For the ATs and infantry, the problem is the same. Maybe the Panthers would spend more time and ammo, but the result is the same: the most of them killed. The only way I felt the 76 mm to be useful is firing smoke to cover an attempt to arrive to the stream of one or two tank platoons (expecting at least having about 50% of them destroyed).

-The best scenario I ever obtained is those 12-15 tanks ambushing the Panthers reaching the stream. I send my tanks out (snoop & scoot), and try to hit the side armor of the monsters, while the tanks on the hill apears, hull down, to cover the ambush and maybe to achieve a fortunate shot.

-The problem is that as far as they advance forming a line, those on the right part of the advance could see my tanks on the left, and viceversa. The result, the same: the T34/76 is no rival to the Panthers frontal armor, while the SU152 usually fail before the Panthers knock it. None of the tanks in the rearguard are a serious challenge for the Panthers at a so long distance.

-The best I ever obtained was knocking 6 Panthers, and a minor defeat.

As Jason C told before, there's no real enjoy in playing as german. You only have to set one half of the Panthers covering the enemies advance, while the others advance to the stream, using the panzergrenadiers to reveal the enemies position. Not so bad to begin and to probe how deadly is the loooong 75 german AT gun. )

Historical? Don't know. I remember not so clear that after going through the first infantry and AT positions, they found the regular soviet armor units, trying to counterattack the germans vanguard units. The best units, the guards armor brigades, were maintained int the rearguard under Rokossovsky until the battle at Prokorohvka.

For me, as russian player, seemed stupid launching and armor counterattack in a so clear scenario, with no AT guns, mines or pillboxes. This would surely be different if you put the soviet in a defensive position, or the flags in the rear kills...