Hull down, when the cover is enough?

[massimorocca]

My question is: you've issued a hull down order; when the program consider to have obtained the cover? All the hull must be under the LOS, or it stop at height of the driver head or oculars if buttoned? Could a high but still partial covering stop the move of tank?

[Krazy Canuck]

Originally posted by massimorocca:

My question is: you've issued a hull down order; when the program consider to have obtained the cover? All the hull must be under the LOS, or it stop at height of the driver head or oculars if buttoned? Could a high but still partial covering stop the move of tank?

Good question. I've always assumed it to mean that the lower half was in cover with the MG below the fire line, I now wonder what the game definition is.

KC

[Max BrauHaus]

I'd like to add to this question:

Why is a tank considered hull down (when firing at it) when it is in a summer wheat field? I can understand that you've lost some visibility to the hull, but an attacking tank can still hit the hull with AP through the wheat (and should be able to aim at the hull - aim at turret and drop gun 5 degrees or whatever).

My problem with wheat listing a tank as hull down in summer wheat is that the TacAI then seems to believe that it cannot engage the tank's hull.

Example:

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Playing Royal Opponent (excellent fun in a PBEM game as long as you like applying hit and run tank tactics by the Russians) there is a lot of flat terrain, and much of it is covered by wheatfields. Axis has many (10+) King Tigers and the Soviets have probably equal amount of IS-2 and 3 times as many T-34 43s.

At least twice I got the drop on a lone KT from the 90 degree side with 4-6 T-34s. However the KT was in wheat and therefore the AI believe the KT to be hull down. The result? The T-34s attempt to fire at the KTs side turret armor which cannot be penetrated by the 76mm (as well as the turret slowly turning toward the firing tanks). However if they were smartly firing at the upper or lower hull through the wheat, then penetrations could be very possible.

Therefore, does there need to be a Hull Down for visibility separate from a Hull Down for cover?

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Max BrauHaus:

I'd like to add to this question:

Why is a tank considered hull down (when firing at it) when it is in a summer wheat field? I can understand that you've lost some visibility to the hull, but an attacking tank can still hit the hull with AP through the wheat (and should be able to aim at the hull - aim at turret and drop gun 5 degrees or whatever).

My problem with wheat listing a tank as hull down in summer wheat is that the TacAI then seems to believe that it cannot engage the tank's hull.

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Therefore, does there need to be a Hull Down for visibility separate from a Hull Down for cover?

I have never noticed hull-down to take into consderation concealement in brush, wheat or scattered trees in the way you describe exactly. However I have been on flat ground and have an enemy come towards me on a hill still get the hull down message. You don't have to be behind a little lump or in a little dip in the ground to achieve hull down. Hull down is relative to the other point or spot. You can be hull down to point A and exposed to point B, C, and D.

[Max BrauHaus]

You don't have to be behind a little lump or in a little dip in the ground to achieve hull down. Hull down is relative to the other point or spot. You can be hull down to point A and exposed to point B, C, and D.

I understand an agree with the second part of your comment, but there has to be some sort of obstruction between point A and point B for the Hull Down condition to occur, right? The example I am stating is a completely flat (pool table!) wheatfield. Two tanks in this wheatfield are considered hull down to one another (or so I experienced in Royal Opponent). Check out the map to see what I am talking about.

[Max BrauHaus]

My question is one of LOS vs. LOF. Wheatfield should not block me from firing at the lower hull of a tank, but being able to see it. But a smart TC (Regular +?) should know enough to be able to target the turret, lower the barrel, and fire.

But the TacAI seems to assume that if the tank is Hull Down (LOS) that it must be behind an impenetrable object, and therefore fires (with futility) at the turrent, or wholesale gives up and retreats.

[Dirtweasle]

I see your point now, and will check further as I have not played Royal Opponent. It's rare I play a battle that large outside of CMMC.

[Treeburst155]

Pool table flat maps yield hull-down status to firing vehicles when they are targeting a unit in grain, brush, and rough terrain if the LOS is traced through enough of this terrain. The same applies to area fire. I disagree with hull-down status being granted to vehicles simply because the target unit/point is in these types of terrain for two reasons:

1) A concealed hull (vegetation) is not a hull-down hull to me. The hull is still vulnerable.

2) Hull-down units have trouble doing area fire with HE. The rounds often hit the ground right in front of them. I therefore try to avoid hull-down status when doing area fire with HE. That's how I noticed all this. I will admit I've never seen gross inaccuracy with HE on pool table flat maps however. Perhaps the firing problem only occurs when units are TRULY hull down.

On a related point, it is becoming apparent to me that area fire with HE might tend to fire short (low) in ANY situation. I seem to have better luck targetting 7-10 meters or so beyond where I really want the rounds to hit. More testing is needed to be sure about this.

If HE IS firing short in general, that might explain why being truly hull down often results in the unit's rounds hitting the ground immediately in front of him. Testing is needed. I hope to get to it soon.

Treeburst155 out.