milhaus Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 While reading the post "How often do guns get hit by direct fire" i noticed an interesting postscript to Poor Old Spikes message. It read - "A bonus of my being the CMBB ladder leader is that people think twice before arguing tactics with me." This implies that the reason he is on top of the ladder is down to his superior tactical skill. Well i thought about this and came to the conclusion , after analysing Poor Old Spikes CMBB ladder statistics , that he , consciously or not , has effectively exploited a loophole in the scoring system. He plays twice as many games , and at a faster rate than the next player to him and therefore only has to win 50% of his games to amass an unassailable score(which he has done) , also when you look at his games in progress he is actually accelerating . So as long as he keeps up this game frequency he can have an average win % and still be top for ever . He must spend every minute of the day playing , so unless the rest of the ladder members give up their jobs and divorce their partners he will always be leader . Also he seems to play the same size and type of game so he will eventually develop a formula that he can replecate ad nauseum . I think a truer reflection of tactical skill is a combination of win % , quality of opponent,year,equipment and the battle type diversity that historical/fictional battles give.i.e. custom maps and forced unit selection test the players flexibility and adaptability as opposed to the blandness of random maps and the luxury of choosing your forces . I would argue that a player with a 60% win rate on blind historical games played over a variety of time periods has more proven overall tactical skill than a player with the same win % that has played the same number of QB 1500 1941 - 42 battles (As in the case of Poor Old Spike) . Therefore I conclude that being on the top of the ladder does not give one the right to brag about one's tactical prowess unless certain criteria are met , and even then its still a bit sad . milhaus :mad: [ March 24, 2003, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: milhaus ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPS Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Luckily double-blind tournaments with custom scenarios and Nabla scoring system have already been invented! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigre Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 RD scoring systemes has his avantage and his disavantage ! like all other scoring systemes on cm in the world ... I play on the french ladder, I have 85% of winn and close to 100 games, but the scoring sytemes is build on the an elo sysyeme (chess like). Then if I play against less ranked people I score much less and lose much more in case of defeat ! this makes people plau against more or less same ranking ! the other systemes we have in our ladder is that the type of victory makes diferent scores on the base the game cm ! total victory will give more points then minor victory ... The problem with RD ladder, is that you score the same amount of points being number one if you beat the last or the second I wish I could play against all the best players in the world, but for that we should have a universal scoring systemes I hope one day we are working on a english version of oour ladder, for everybody to have a look appuiefeu 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Spike Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Guys,guys!-The great thing about the cleverly-thought-out Rugged Defense scoring system is that its based on win percentage ratios,which means it won't help your percentage a bit if you play a thousand games yet don't win many of 'em! I've currently got 26 RD pbems going because people ENJOY taking me on and they know my parameters are always fair and that I'm a non-gamey guy,and that they'll get a decent game! Wudja believe I even HELP my opponents (particularly newbies) before the start by outlining the best units to buy,and what tactics to use, and I even help them along during play itself,boy am I weird!(Mumpfelpfrumf is about to whup me bad with his Tigers,I said before the start "Sure,buy Tigers,I'll take just T-34/76s") There's a place for decency and honour in game-playing,and my opponents appreciate it. Hey Milhaus-we haven't played yet,fancy a ladder game? As for me boasting about being top of the RD ladder,I do it just to ruffle peoples feathers and am glad to see them rising to the bait! Anyway,arrogance is GOOD,so long as the boaster can talk the talk AND walk the walk,and I can do both! :cool: (Edit to include:- If its any consolation to people,I've told Rugged Defence that I'm uncomfortable with my large lead and that if they want to change the scoring system its okay by me) [ March 26, 2003, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: Poor Old Spike ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigre Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 well I stopped playing on RD because I can't play more than one ladder corectly the idea is to create a WL world ladder that could make all players share the passion for the game we could then meet also and confront ouselves by TCP/IP that is the future of that game that can be very nice to look for a public we just had the french chmpionnship in paris with 40 players ! 9 games of 1000/1250 in 5mm time :eek: we had the playing of one on the white wall for everybody to look at ! I think that a systemes based on elo like chess is the key of having a good scoring systemes for CM ! what do you think 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 sure ELO system is the key....anyway I like playing! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 Tigre, Could you give more detail regarding this, the logistics behind it and where it was held etc etc. It is an interesting concept and one of the first times I've heard of such a large gathering for a turn-based wargame. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave H Posted March 27, 2003 Share Posted March 27, 2003 So, Poor Old Spike, our paths cross once again. I thought I had left you for dead with all the blazing armored cars (Russian and German) in a late night blizzard. Or was it with your elite Panther when it finally fell victim to my T-34? Wherever. Anyway, as long as players keep challenging you, and you keep winning, there must be something you're doing right. How you can keep up with 26 games is beyond me. I'll definitely say that I enjoyed our non-ladder games, and that you really pushed me to get better. Thanks. :cool: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Spike Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Thanks Dave H,it was in the fun games with you and others that I learnt the trade and picked up a few pointers on the way,like the time you gave me a humiliating object lesson on how my Stugs were useless in close-in city-fighting, no doubt you carted all the wrecks back to publicly display as trophies in Red Square. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigre Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 ok fionn here is the situation, for 20 years france was orgenasing a frenchchampionship on regular paper wargammes, we where aech year inbetween 100 and 200 players gathering for the event, and we always played with chess cloks :eek: this championship died eventualy and then come cm, old players are now all united again on appuiefeu the french speaking web site, we are now over 500 players ! we are using since the begining of the year an elo systemes based on chess. Means that a high ranking playing against a low ranking gets less points if a win and losses more if a defeat ! it also means that if you lose one and win one againts same rankink the result is 0. we also included the base victory of cm, total victory gets more points than minor ! this systemes gives much more seriousness to the ladder and keeps the spirit of cm, people who play a lot but loose don't progress in the ladder ... when we play tournaments, all players can inscribe unless it's an elite or crack type, then high player can always play in tournaments against very low ranked recruits ! the idea is to get players of same level to play together and finaly elect best play and real champions (girls will love that) ! we gathered together two weeks ago, and the experience of everybody after two days of struggling was worth of 6 month of pbem. when people saw me preparing my stuart move on 5 turn in advance on 5mm timing turn, and the effect was one puma, one panther and a pz4, people understood a lot of the diference of gaming and why like many others in the world I have 85% victory on 100 games ! and that is important for me to all exchange our experience of our passion so the idea is to murge all on a WL (world ladder) cross the seas climb the mountains and meet for fun we have an estimation of 2000 players of cm ranked on maybe 10 diferent ladders ! if we all agree we could do something really intresting for all :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Where did all he CMBO ladder heavyweights go? Guys like Swamp and KiwiJoe? Poor Old Spike: Don't get a big head - Swamp once had a 47 (Or so) unbeaten streak in ladder play against all comers! I think a lot of the CMBO rea guys just got burned out. Gyrene 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Very interesting report Tigre. Thanks for giving it. FWIW I think the Chess system would cut out these loopholes we're seeing where fast players can rack up more points than slower players of greater skill. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 The Band of Brothers uses a scoring system that accomplishes pretty much what's being described. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Spike Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Hey Milhaus,your e-mails calling me a "dumbass with a Messiah complex" are funny but untrue,and are therefore blasphemous! I'm a very popular guy in RD,just ask my multitude of disciples! A tip mate-I hear you've got a name as a slow player,averaging only one file per fortnight,and have only finished 8 games in the last 6 months.Try not to micromanage so much! I've finished 43 games in 7 weeks ! The more games anybody plays,the more experience he gains and becomes a better player! You can argue and bluster til you're blue in the face mate,but that won't change the fact that I'm the Rugged Defence Cmbb Ladder Leader ! Accept it ! :cool: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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