Proper use of Tank Destroyer and Tank Hunter Vehicles.

[John Osborne]

I would like to know what is the proper way of using the Tank Hunters and Tank Destroyer vehicles in a battle? And where can I find information that I may need in the future for questions such as these.

Any information is appreciated.

---John

[ December 14, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: John Osborne ]

[Redwolf]

You can download "Seek, Strike, and Destroy: U.S. Army Tank Destroyer Doctrine in World War II" by Dr Christoper R. Gabel somewhere on the internet. Note that this is the flawed U.S. doctrine.

There are several different kinds of SP tank destroyers:

1) use just as you would a towed gun, except you would change position after each shot

2) the German late-war tank hunter with this front plate

3) the U.S. doctrine

First to the U.S. doctrine as you don't want to use it in CM: the other nation's TD tactics were like a deep hunter in the woods. You seek a nice spot then you wait for the prey to come into reach and then you open fire before you get spotted. The U.S. TD doctrine was more like these Englishmen going on a foxhunt: a huge crowd charges on big horses and "hunts the prey down".

For starters, this U.S. doctrine only works with turrets which made the M10s almost as expensive as a Sherman and hence a waste, it only works with fast TDs which only the later M18 gained and it requires a much larger number of TDs to have.

You will maybe want to play a scenario or two to try this doctrine but it failed in reality and it's not very useful in CM.

The U.S. TD doctrine had some other aspect which made a little more sense, for example the big open turret. The M10 would often have one more crewmember, a second loader which would be good for volume of fire. The open turret also means that 3-4 people can all watch out for threats and they can all "button up" much faster. These advantages are not reflected in CM and U.S. crews usually cover their turrets with metal sheets to gain protection from artillery which they encountered more often than German tanks.

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The thick-plate German TDs should be pretty obvious to use. You stand back and take shots from hulldown. You have to watch the sides of your vehicle.

In CMBB the awful slow turn rates made them less effective, but CMAK has better turn rates.

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The thin TDs in CM suffer heavily from borg spotting. The most important tactics to keep in mind is to limit LOS to precisely the vehicle you want to destroy, and nothing else. If you open fire with several enemy tanks in sight all will fire back and kill you quickly.

CMAK seems to have reduced the borg spotting return fire effect by not associating the firer with fire every time (you can see it by the red target line often missing in CMAK), I didn't test what this does to the return fire problem yet.

[dieseltaylor]

Redwolf has the right of it!

Your first act should be to look at the armour thickness and slope of the armour. Look at the gun penetration, ammo load. Speed, of interest, but not so crucial.

What are you fighting against, there armour gun etc. Terrain you are fighting on and whether you are attacking over it or defending.

Having got that sorted you can make decisions. As a general rule defending is always better as you can chose good keyhole positions, escape routes and sit back to enjoy yourself. Very useful for turreted tank destroyers not quite so useful for fixed turret. But then if someone drops artillery onto your hideyhole an open turret is no fun.

Referring to my first part if you are sitting in a Jagdtiger it is a different ballgame. I believe in Normandy one sat on a hill and blew away most of a tank regiment whilst in full sight.

If you are attacking keep the flanks covered and try to work yourself into safe areas where your fire is going to cover areas where something will happen in the near future. As with the most tanks but even more so DO NOT take them into towns or confined areas.

[JasonC]

All TDs kill enemy tanks by attacking them from unsuspected positions. They all have AT guns powerful enough to deal with standard enemy armor, and usually more than that and thereby enough to deal with any enemy armor. Against the heaviest enemies they may need a certain range or a side angle shot.

An unsuspected position means, in practice, from full defilade a minute before the engagement - behind a hill, hiding behind a house, or around the side of a substantial body of woods. You don't want to be looking for the first time, so somebody else (typically infantry in cover) already sees the enemy tank. You know where it is and which way it is facing. Preferably it is doing something that will make it hard for it to engage the TD back - shooting at something else, or moving while facing well away from the TD.

Then you move into position and kill the thing. Shoot and scoot (reversing or continuing to alterate cover) can be used if you are vulnerable to his reply and the range is low enough to make a first shot hit likely, or if only the first shot is likely to have the facing needed to kill him. Hunt can be used if you know your TD won't "cower" from the enemy e.g. if your armor is thick enough to bounce his shots. Otherwise, make a short fast move to the firing location and stop. That will put multiple rounds at him over the remainder of the minute.

Once you kill the target the TD should relocate, staying in full defilade while doing so if that is feasible. The idea is multiple points of threat, not a few constant and therefore avoidable ones.

TDs should not be wasted against enemy infantry until after the armor war is completely won. Even then, they should avoid exposing themselves to likely enemy guns. They typically lack the HE load depth and full compliment of MGs of full tanks. They can throw their HE, late, against a few forward targets then call it a day. But this is a secondary use. The main thing is just to win the armor war with them, freeing your own regular tanks and HE chucker vehicles to go after the enemy infantry, while keeping your own foot-sloggers free of the reverse.

A thick front is not enough to make an unsuspected firing position unnecessary. Flanks are vulnerable on all vehicles, and narrow "keyholes" that do not expose flanks can be approached from outside the keyhole LOS if the enemy knows where you are. The enemy is also unlikely to move any kind of armor into LOS of any TD he knows about. So if you aren't hidden beforehand, you won't get a shot, whether thick or thin.

[Carl Puppchen]

If you play the Germans and are selecting for points the STG III F and G series are a good all purpose weapon - they are MG armed, have good HE capability, and can stand-off well against the Allied tanks (less so the late war Russian). Note that if you buy them in platoon you receive 3 units with an HQ that often provides a fighting bonus (as well as reducing the per-unit cost). German fighting doctrine for TD's stressed that these units should operate as a platoon, not as single TD's, whenever possible.

The Hetzer TD's are also a good buy, they have a smaller profile than the STG III F and G models, better front slope armor, and the same 75mm gun. They have less HE rounds, however, so are less effective against infantry.

The 76mm Marder is a substantially less effective weapon. It has a high profile, which means that it is quickly spotted, and is open topped, which means that it must fear even small caliber mortars. These TD's die quickly and should be avoided in favor of the STG series or Hetzers whenever possible.

Although I enjoyed building the Nashorn model when I was a kid, I find this to be a not-very cost effective weapon in CMBB / CMAK. The 88mm gun is awesome and can kill anything it can see except perhaps a late model JS series but these are also high profile, open topped and very slow vehicles, with very thin armor.

In a post above a reference was made to the JadgTiger - I think that the reference should have been to the JadgPanther because it seemed that the reference was more in the 1944 Normandy time frame - but either the JadgTiger or the JadgPanther are awesome weapons. The JadgPanther has the Panther chassis with its strong armor and fast speed, combined with the high velocity 88mm gun of the late model Tiger (King Tiger). These weapons can dominate the game, with their only flaws being a slow turning radius and (relatively) weaker side armor. The JadgTiger fears no one except maybe a late model JS series - their 128mm gun takes out most any Allied tank at any range and is great for infantry, as well. Their major disadvantages are their SLOW speed and high profile. Their most likely adversary is air attack where their heavy armor can be pierced from above.

The Elephant is a rare vehicle but it is armed with the same 88mm gun as the JadgPanther and the Nashorn and has very heavy armor. It lacks MG for self defense and is also very slow, along with having a high profile. On defense in cover it is a VERY dangerous TD, on offense its slow speed makes it marginally useful.

Employing TD's on the attack usually turns out poorly, with the exception of the STG series, which make pretty effective all around vehicles for the price. Attacking with Marders or Nashorns is to be avoided at almost all costs.

Best of luck tank hunting! All of the posts above r/e "key hole" positions are right on the money - you want to shoot and scoot. I would also emphasizing purchasing weapons in platoon strength (generally 3 units) for all round protection and a lower per-unit cost.

[Redwolf]

The Jagdpanther actually has an excellent turn rate.

It's the IV/70 which is the lame duck and CM players are lucky at that as the bad trench performance isn't modeled.

[ December 14, 2003, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[John Osborne]

Thanks, Guys for the reply.

Alot of very good info. Now I need to put it in use in the battle fields. And will post from my upcoming battle with the Tank Hunters and Tank Destroyers.

---John

[dugfromthearth]

a note which I have found important for the allies.

in CMBO you can get Jackson's which mount a 90mm gun.

in CMAK you can only get Wolverine's which mount a 76mm (I think, smaller then the Jackson's anyway). Jackson's become available very late.

A Jackson can pop-up and kill almost any German tank with one hit. A Wolverine cannot. This is critical because one hit from any German tank will kill either a Jackson or a Wolverine. In practice this makes Jackson's good tank killers and Wolverines a waste of points.

[JasonC]

Wolverines are not a waste of points. They are not as effective as Jacksons, true. But they can kill any German AFV with a side shot out to medium range. And they can kill the common heavy types, the Tiger I and the Panther, even from the front (with a turret hit only for the second) - either with tungsten ammo, or at close range with plain AP. Compared to vanilla Sherman 75Ws, they are much more effective tank killers.

[Redwolf]

Part of the bad reputation of the M10 in CMBO came from it's slow turret and from its vulnerablity to small guns (which would kill instantly).

With cover arcs in CMAK and less kills from small-caliber pentrations I expect them to be a lot more effective.

Also, the 76mm armed tanks are more expensive now, upgrading a M10 to a Sherman 76 costs a lot of points now.

I will miss the Jackson, though. Can't anybody track down an Italy reference for the Jackson? And for a Volksgrenadier division in Italy while you're at it?

[PJungnitsch]

Originally posted by dieseltaylor:

Referring to my first part if you are sitting in a Jagdtiger it is a different ballgame. I believe in Normandy one sat on a hill and blew away most of a tank regiment whilst in full sight.

I think that refers to this quote from George Forty:

"As a very young officer, newly commissioned in the summer of 1948, I remember vividly being taken to visit the battlefields in the Ardennes area and coming across what seemed to be an entire regiment of Sherman tanks which had been completely annihilated. There were Shermans lying in heaps everywhere one looked, turrets blown off, hulls ripped apart, most had clearly been brewed up -not for nothing was the Sherman known as the 'Tommy Cooker'. They had been advancing with the grain of the country and clearly been taken by surprise from a flank. The follow-up echelon had then turned right-handed towards their tormentor, but had found little cover along their new line of advance. The author of all this carnage was one single Jagdtiger, whose immense bulk still occupied a perfect fire position in a farmyard at the top of a commanding hill feature. The Jagdtiger itself had been burnt out, either by air attack, or perhaps by its own crew when they ran out of ammunition. The memory of the scene has remained with me for nearly 40 years, a perfect example of a tank destroyer doing its deadly work."

[Redwolf]

I don't remember the details but that report has been trashed pretty good on the CMBO forum once upon a time.

The Jagdtiger was the only German shooting not having cleaned by the time and somebody is jumping to conclusions here.

[JasonC]

Forty mostly retells tall Tiger tales anyway. Critical he is not.

[Tank Ace]

SHOOT AND SCOOT