A little discussion about super platoon HQs

[Lt. Beavis]

I would like to know if this little bit of..."charm" factor in CMBO and CMBB is going to be eliminated in the next game engine.

There is a consistent bias in favor of platoon HQs within the game. They don't suppress as easily as other units, and it is harder to kill them.

Sometimes. This phenomenon does not happen ALWAYS. But it happens often enough to become annoying.

Regularly, against the AI, I see the following general happenings:

1) All other enemy units are dead or far away

2) Enemy platoon HQ is the only opposition in the area that is unbroken

3) It takes an incredible amount of firepower from multiple full squads of infantry at 100m range to suppress 4 guys, and even then they will pop up multiple times to return fire. Seems like they never break or take casualties, even with hundreds of bullets sent in their direction.

4) This has happened in open ground. The enemy doesn't surrender, run away, or simply go to ground and stay there. They merrily pop up, return fire, and don't break unless I close assault with a squad and cut their heads off. Of course, in doing so, they pop up one last time to kill 1 or two more guys in a blaze of glory.

Please don't tell me to just ignore them once they are suppressed. They recover quickly and begin firing at my troops again.

The suppression model is better in CMBB than CMBO, but there are still times where things go awry.

Super unsuppressed troop formations also include infantry squads, but the problem is worse with platoon HQs.

[Bone_Vulture]

The random fanaticism factor might've dealt you some bad fortune; otherwise I'd suggest mowing over HQ squads, since they generally have lacluster firepower.

[edgars]

I replayed the Merida scenario recently, against AI.

There was a company hq unit in trench, which for full 6 turns were fired upon by more than dozen of squads from all directions, including one partisan squad in heavy building directly behind the trench.

The yellow lines coming from that HQ unit looked like a little sun.

For the length of those 6 minutes the HQ unit was returning fire at my troops. Only in the middle of 7th minute it packed and decided to creep away and was killed subsequently.

[MikeyD]

I've had no luck killing much of ANYBODY with infantry at 100m range! It's usually suppress the hell out of 'em then send a squad in for the coup de gras.

HQ units, by their nature, would naturally be tougher to suppress, especially if their command bonuses are 'dialed-up'. But yes, they do sometimes seem to outdo Rambo in their ability to survive impossible odds.

[Andreas]

Are you playing scenarios? Could it be the fanaticism setting? Do the HQs have a morale bonus?

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Do the HQs have a morale bonus?

Well, if the HQ does have a morale +2 bonus, it's usually the team that benefits from it to the very end.

[Lt. Beavis]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

The random fanaticism factor might've dealt you some bad fortune; otherwise I'd suggest mowing over HQ squads, since they generally have lacluster firepower.

I have thought about this, and I believe that the problem involves fanaticism/morale bonuses and the resultant effect that a person sees in the game.

I am in total agreement with the fanaticism possibility, or morale bonuses. They should be in the game.

I am thinking, though, that all of the incoming fire I direct at a group of fanatics will cause a particular event to occur (see below, #1). Here, fanatic means suicidal, uncaring, merciless, totally devoted to the cause. Death is perfectly acceptable.

I think a group of non-fanatics with high experience and morale bonuses will implement option #2.

1) They will recklessly expose themselves to the overwhelming return fire, toss grenades, whatever it is that they're doing. Think Totenkopf during the invasion of France. Their technique sucked, from a tactical standpoint, but they got the job done (and with lots of casualties).

2) They will take cover, but remain unbroken where a unit with less experience/morale bonus would take cover from a huge volume of fire and pee their pants, becoming ineffective until they are able to rally.

Now, thinking about option 1...well, they're gonna start dying if they are exposed and returning fire. They may die to a man, and if they are fanatic, elite, have a great HQ morale bonus...that's fine. It happened. But in the game, I constantly see them being exposed, returning fire, and not dying.

Considering option 2, they would be safer to some extent, depending on the terrain and incoming fire directed at them. But they wouldn't be providing effective return fire, and they would also end up taking casualties due to massive incoming fire (if they're in what CM calls a trench, then obviously things would be different). Just that the infliction of casualties would be at a lesser rate versus the exposed, super gung-ho fanatics.

Basically, I think that the fanaticism and morale bonuses modify the chance to inflict a casualty, along with giving units...morale staying power, if you want to think of it that way. If I can't suppress them, fine, but if they aren't suppressed then that means they are vulnerable to my fire, since they need to see me to fire at me and that means I can hit them (in most situations).

This problem seems to occur more often in platoon HQs.

I'll also ask a question for others who read this thread... Have you seen this happen, where a platoon HQ will be the only unbroken, fighting unit the AI has in an area? And that you just can't seem to suppress or kill them? There are a few responses, and it seems others have noticed this too.

[Lt. Beavis]

Originally posted by edgars:

I replayed the Merida scenario recently, against AI.

There was a company hq unit in trench, which for full 6 turns were fired upon by more than dozen of squads from all directions, including one partisan squad in heavy building directly behind the trench.

The yellow lines coming from that HQ unit looked like a little sun.

For the length of those 6 minutes the HQ unit was returning fire at my troops. Only in the middle of 7th minute it packed and decided to creep away and was killed subsequently.

This is the general situation I'm talking about. Multiple squads targeting one HQ unit, which remains unsuppressed and returning fire. They were helped out a great deal by the trench in which they were residing, true.

But I have seen this happen where the unit in question is occupying open ground, rocky terrain, all kinds of places. Non-fortified places.

[Lt. Beavis]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I've had no luck killing much of ANYBODY with infantry at 100m range! It's usually suppress the hell out of 'em then send a squad in for the coup de gras.

HQ units, by their nature, would naturally be tougher to suppress, especially if their command bonuses are 'dialed-up'. But yes, they do sometimes seem to outdo Rambo in their ability to survive impossible odds.

I agree. Suppression in general should require a fair amount of effort, especially dealing with a full squad. The game seems pretty reasonable when it comes to suppressing a full squad most of the time, although they too can exhibit super unsuppressed, unkillable, returning fire madness.

Mostly though, it seems that platoon HQs are far more likely to go Rambo. An apt description, for Rambo also never gets suppressed by enemy fire or killed

[Lt. Beavis]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Are you playing scenarios? Could it be the fanaticism setting? Do the HQs have a morale bonus?

I usually don't play scenarios, just quick battles.

My response to Bone_Vulture goes over fanaticism and morale influences, so you can read my viewpoint concerning them there. I think that when fanaticism is triggered, or when a unit has a +2 morale bonus, the implementation of effects stemming from those situations is a bit off.

[Cannon-fodder]

Actually I can't think of any instances when I've really had a problem with this - I certainly hadn't noticed a difference between HQs and normal squads. This may be because I don't tend to have anything over veteran?

The only units I have noticed never seem to break are HMGs (well they do break, but they last such a long time while returning fire), and this is probably realsitic. Not having fought in WW2, I wouldn't really know.

But no, I haven't noticed anything particularly odd... maybe something to do with experience levels?