Hans Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 I have a conflict in sources, some say the battle began in October as part of the dive on Moscow and other say it was in late September. The specific question is Anyone have an idea of what the 119th Rifle Division and 10th Panzer were doing on the 20th of september 1941? James Dunnigan says they were fighting each other but I cannot find another source to confirm this. Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGONZOM Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 This is pretty general...but check this out This reports the end? Here is another? One last try? Looking for 110th now... [ February 18, 2003, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: Mr_Gonzo_The_Rooster ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 10 Panzer was part of Guderian's 2 Panzer Group in the earlier fight for Smolensk. It was then left in the area it had reached in that fighting (around Yelna, reached as early as the end of July), when Guderian turned south for Kiev. It was part of 4th Panzer group for the later drive on Moscow. The operation toward Moscow jumped off on 2 Oct. Vyazma is 125 miles from Moscow, on the direct rail line from Smolensk to Moscow. It was the initial target of the German pincers. The Vyazma pocket was first closed on 6 Oct, when 10 Pz Div from the south met 7 Pz Div from the north a few miles east-north-east of that city. Germans entered the city proper on 7 October. From 6 Oct to 10 Oct, the Russian forces in the pocket - which was huge - fought strongly to escape, and some groups did (at night through the forests, in particular). The remaining forces in the pocket collapsed over the period 11 Oct to 14 Oct, with hundreds of thousands of prisoners taken. That is what is usually referred to as the battle of Vyazma or the Vyazma pocket. The Bryansk pocket was being formed at the same time, a little further south (its eastern wall made by Guderian's return northeastward from the Kiev area) - and that one was actually two pockets, the middle one rather "leaky" or inadequately closed on the eastern end. Did 10 Pz fight somewhere along the Yelna to Vyazma axis in late September, before the Oct 2 jump off of the rest of the operation? It is possible, I haven't found that level of detail yet. But this would not "qualify" as the "battle of Vyazma". That city was definitely not yet reached. 10 Pz advanced 60 miles to make the "cut" that formed the south to eastern wall of the Vyazma pocket between 2 Oct and 6 Oct. So in late September, it was still considerably west and south of that city. I hope this helps. Sorry the level of detail isn't higher. I can try other book sources - this much comes from places on the web and what I already knew. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary T Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Hi Hans, I've attached two maps showing the divisional dispositions on the Smolensk-Vyamza axis on 20th September 1941 (top) and 6th October 1941 (bottom). As you can see 10. Panzer is situated south east of Smolensk along the Smolensk-Roslavl rail line on 20th September, while 119th Rifle is at Olenino west of Rzhev. The Soviet divisional positions are German intelligence estimates. On the 6th October you can see that 10. Panzer is now at Vyamza while 119th is still in the same area. I have all the maps for the days in between and although 119th Rifle disappears on a few days (presumably to missing intelligence) it always reappears in the same area. It is actually in combat in this area on 13th October before falling back to the Volga. It has disappeared off German maps by the end of the month. It never came anywhere near 10. Panzer in September or October. I have maps of the same detail from 22nd June to 5th December so if you think it might be another date let me know and I'll look. Sorry for the scan quality - the maps are A3 sized and the book is very heavy to hold under such a small scanner! Cheers, Gary. [ February 18, 2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Gary T ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted February 18, 2003 Author Share Posted February 18, 2003 Thanks JasonC and Gary T I have records that show the 119th was Stavka reserve but the only source I have for the 10th PZ and that division fighting is one source of one line! I would suspect that the date is either wrong (or the source it was obtained from is incorrect) or one of the unit designation is off. Gads James Dunnigan wrong, hard to believe! Will be an interesting addendum to the scenario Thanks again 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonfog Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 The OKW war diary (Kriegstagebuch des OKW) also locates 10th Panzer south of Roslawl on september 23th. The division seems to have been attached to 4th Army at that moment. According to the diary, 4th Army repelled a small scale soviet attack at Potschep on september 19th but no indication whether 10th Panzer was involved or not. After that date there's no action mentioned except recon skirmishes and Artillery duells. So, according to that one source, it doesn't seem 10th Panzer was involved in a fight on september 20th. Not much, but all I found. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted February 19, 2003 Author Share Posted February 19, 2003 Thought, could you gentlemen check and see if the 119th rifle Regiment (not division) might have been involved during that time frame (assuming the German unit is correct) Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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