A.E.B Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Hi all I have often read, but have never been able to find real evidence, that AFVs and their crews were KOed by the concussion of HE type impacts or near misses. What I have discovered, but not evidence. The US Army redesigned the original M1 Abrams when it was estimated that the driver's head was to close to the armour, risking injury if the tank was struck by a large HEAT, HESH or HE warhead (this was modelled in the first M1 Tank Platoon game). The Australians built a large ATG system in the 1950s that was replaced by the more practical SS10/11 missile. This huge minature plane carried a 85kg HESH warhead, which could tear apart even a T10M without penetrating the armour. Aircraft bombs and Naval gunfire trashed small tanks and disabled larger tanks with the blast from near misses (hence the Tigers and Panthers on their sides/roofs in Normandy. In the book Tank verse Tank, during a battle in Italy M4s and Panthers fired HE at each other when they ran out of AP. Several tanks were lost to mechanical failures due to HE hits. I have read personnal accounts where German tank crews stated that Russian arty, occassionally fired direct, ripped external fittings off tanks, wrecked MGs and turret rings and - in the case of 122 and 152s, rip off whole turrets from Panzer IIIs and IVs. Crewmembers suffered injuries from objects (not armour flakes) flying around due to impact, or from being slugged against equipment or the armour (gunners looking through the sights were supposedly particularly at risk from head injuries). Also, the valve based radios were normally KOed by a HE blast. Is this concussion effect real, or is it on of these half-truths that have found their way into the historical record, so it is now treated as fact? I haven't witnessed many HE KOs in CMBB - apart from aircarft bombs - so I was wondering if the non-penertrating HE "shock" hit was modelled. I have searched, but could find no previous thread where this question was definitely answered. Regards A.E.B 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 I haven't witnessed many HE KOs in CMBB - apart from aircarft bombs - so I was wondering if the non-penertrating HE "shock" hit was modelled. I have searched, but could find no previous thread where this question was definitely answered. I'm pretty sure it's modeled. I've watched KV-2 rattle PZIIIs to death in a single shot with "Non-penatrating/No damage" hits. 150/152 HE rounds will quickly break main guns and tracks on most tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florian Gross Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Use a Sturmtiger! Blasts everything into oblivion without actually hitting it. They aren't very good at hitting things btw. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maj. Battaglia Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 An odd thing happened today. There were two German PSW 222 ACs pretty close to one another. I was playing the Soviet and caused one to be abandoned. Next turn the other one is hit by my BT and it explodes. Immediately, the other one, previously abandoned, explodes as well. Secondary explosion? Nobody else was targeting it. Thanks to Wisbech_lad for use of his computer to run CM:BB. Still no upgrade in the Battaglia household. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halberdier Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 I forgot where I read it, but the HE pressure shockwave can damage piping in the engine that is used for cooling and whatnot (fuelpump?). cheers! -gabe- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PondScum Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 Originally posted by Maj. Battaglia: <font size=-1>An odd thing happened today. There were two German PSW 222 ACs pretty close to one another. I was playing the Soviet and caused one to be abandoned. Next turn the other one is hit by my BT and it explodes. Immediately, the other one, previously abandoned, explodes as well. Secondary explosion? Nobody else was targeting it.</font>I've had a similar thing happen - two PSW 222's, one in front of the other. First one gets hit by a BT tank and suffers a catastrophic explosion. Second one is immediately abandoned 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted June 26, 2003 Share Posted June 26, 2003 HE can damage an AFV but more importantly it can make the crew think it is damaged. For example, during the after battle assesments during the Battle of the Bulge it was found that many German tanks that had been "knocked out" by U.S. artillery actually suffered little damage. Usually it consisted of jammed turrets or thrown track and busted drive sprockets and road wheels. As hits by AP rounds varried as to how much the crew noticed them (some crews said they never heard them while others heard them quite distinctly) a hit or a near miss by HE will often be more dramatic. Imagine the following: A PzIV is advancing and comes under a sharp artillery barrage. I piece of shrapnel lodges in the turret ring and jams the turret while dirt thrown up by the barrage blinds the sights. A near miss throws the track and tilts the tank into a shellhole. The crew suddenly finds itself blind, stunned by the tank being tossed about like a toy, and unable to move. As far as they are concerned the tank is dead. The commander gives the order and, during a lull, the crew escapes. If the vehicle is recovered later it can be fixed with only a couple hours work but the crew, while under fire, had to decide on the basis of what they could sense whether or not they had a chance. AFVs only look invulnerable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 i just took out a Stug (june 41 don't know the model yet) with a side hit by a 76.2mm at ~400m. now if only he didn't have 4 more... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 I knocked a T34/85 with HE from a Brummbar. It took about three or four shots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Originally posted by A.E.B: ...This huge minature plane... So which is it, large or small? Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nippy Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Originally posted by PondScum: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Maj. Battaglia: <font size=-1>An odd thing happened today. There were two German PSW 222 ACs pretty close to one another. I was playing the Soviet and caused one to be abandoned. Next turn the other one is hit by my BT and it explodes. Immediately, the other one, previously abandoned, explodes as well. Secondary explosion? Nobody else was targeting it.</font>I've had a similar thing happen - two PSW 222's, one in front of the other. First one gets hit by a BT tank and suffers a catastrophic explosion. Second one is immediately abandoned </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAsta_KFC Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Hmmm, it would be nice if we had official word on whether explosions cause secondary damage to nearby units. ANyone? :confused: ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted June 27, 2003 Share Posted June 27, 2003 Originally posted by MAsta_KFC: Hmmm, it would be nice if we had official word on whether explosions cause secondary damage to nearby units. ANyone? :confused: ? Clearly they do based on the responses to date. Seems very realistic to me. Regards Jim R. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.E.B Posted June 27, 2003 Author Share Posted June 27, 2003 quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by A.E.B: ...This huge minature plane... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So which is it, large or small? Regards Jim R. Opps! Huge for an ATG - a landrover could just carry one on an overhead rail, but small for a plane. Regards A.E.B 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aco4bn187inf Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Damage caused by exploding AFV's- Mortar carrying halftracks in particular are great for causing damage to nearby units, when they blow up. They are thinly armored and carry lots of HE. When you kill one you sometimes get a surprise bonus kill as well, as I once did when I killed a sdkfz 251/2 and found a KO'd AT gun behind it. This is much better that the way I usually find enemy AT guns. The lesson is, if you have such halftracks, keep other friendly units FAR AWAY! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 I don't know about offical word, but I've certainly seen it. I just lost 3 HTs to an SU-152 round. The first was a penetration, and 2 others up to 30m away went down in the shock wave/shrapnel aftermath. I've seen the like several times with large aircraft bombs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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