How's this idea for a very extreme fog of war option?

[Noiseman]

What do you think of this very extreme fog of war option: enemy units are ony visable to the player on view levels one and two. At view level three and above, only friendly units are visable and they do not show the red/yellow fire/receiving fire sight lines. Movement orders can be given at the higher view levels normally.

This option would lessen the effect of borg spotting on the player's strategy, and lessen the effect of the 'god-like' player position. Having to cycle through units at low view levels to see the enemy would better simulate the real-life constraints of commanders. A player who can better keep the facts at his figertips would have a game advantage (i.e. skill). Recon would be of more importance.

The major drawback of this option would be that the players (non-virtual) time commitment to the game would increase dramatically. This is why it would have to be a selectable option. I personally would not want to play this way all the time, but once in a while (especially against the AI) it would really add a lot of flavor.

I've tried to play QBs exclusively at levels one and two, but invariably become disoriented as to the larger picture (even with an overview pre-printed map). Giving orders can also get tedious. I would think that by restricting views in the manner described above, a nice balance could be struck.

Your thoughts and suggestions are welcome as there are a lot of possible permutations of this idea. Unfortunatly at this late date in the development of the CMX1 engine, we'll most likely never see it implemented, but it seems worth discussing all the same

[ September 11, 2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Noiseman ]

[Michael Emrys]

Definitely a fresh approach to the problem. I don't know how I'd like it, but I'd be willing to give it a try. And the fact that it would be selectable would mean that you wouldn't be stuck with it if you decided you didn't like it.

Michael

[Noiseman]

I was primarily thinking about this concept as a way to handicap a player against the AI, but it could also be an interesting factor in tcp/ip play, particularly if the time limit per turn option is in use. It would take non-virtual time to check out where fire is coming from, which would add a relatively new factor to multiplayer games. Players would have to prioritize certain critical sectors rather than having a god-like overview. I dislike RTS, but time and priorities should have a (relative) place in the tension of a combat simulation. I am certainly not advocating a click fest.

This concept really has to be taken in the context of CMX2, as I can foresee a lot of the technical and playtesting issues. For example, in the higher view levels should the player be able to hear things? See tracers? Should enemy units be totally invisible or shown as icons with no unit data? I don't claim to have all the answers, which is why I'm very curious for other players input.

I'd like to stress again that I wouldn't want to play every CM scenario or QB in this manner, but it would be fun to have this option.

[David Chapuis]

This is definitely a different spin on the FOW. I tried to play one game at level 1/2, but also found it very frustrating. Another than almost impossible to give orders, another one of the worst things was trying to "look around" when selected on a unit. If this option was added, I think it would be good to have a way to view things from a unit perspective, eg once you get "locked on" a unit, have a button that rotates the view 45 degrees.

But overall, although it would be an interesting option, I dont think I would play it that much. One reason is because it just takes sooooooo long to watch a fight from those views.

Two, it really wouldnt be that effective of limiting the "all-knowing commander" option. That is because you could still easily make all of your other units react to what one unit saw, you would just have to flash back and forth from level 1 to level 4/8 to give the orders.

[Louie the Toad]

Well this method you describe is a main component of Franko's True Combat Rules. I have played this way a lot both BO and BB. Nearly every CMBB battle vs the AI I have played, I use this system. Not so in BB vs live opponents though.

I recently completed a BO game vs a trustworthy opponent using FTCR.

Here is a very important factor that will need to be addressed. At levels 1 and 2 it is difficult and sometimes impossible to plot forces in and among buildings, on roads, in light trees and woods, really any 'tight' spot. This is a flaw in the game interface when used at only levels 1 and 2. My personal solution is to go to the closest top down view. In BO it is level 5. Do my plot w/o scrolling around and then go back to level 1 or 2.

This way I get no advantage from level 5 except that I can plot accurately.

Then there is the "church steeple" view which is level 3 in BO. Offered to a unit which on level 2 of a church moves to a position beneath the steeple and is assumed to have gone up. This little advantage in sight has caused bitter fights for church buildings in my world.

These things could all be worked out I am sure.

I really think Noiseman is on to something.

BTS should take a look at this.

On my belly.......... Toad

[GreenAsJade]

I had been pondering a very similar suggestion: at levels 1-4 you can only see what one of your units can see. At 5 and above, you can see everywhere, but only your own units show.

IE 1-4 is "what your guys can see" and

5 and up is "what you plot on your map".

The reason it remained pondering only was because I couldn't visualise what it would be like to be looking at level 3 but only having what your units can see displayed.

Maybe not so bad: simply a lot like having the horizon set very short?

Of course, the "graphics engine" implication of such a thing are horrendous: possible completely infeasible (calculating what is in LOS from any friendly unit at each point)... but hey, that's what computers are for

GaJ.

[Noiseman]

Franko's true combat rules were my inspiration. I was trying to play them, but just couldn't resist the urge to orient myself at a higher view level. I'd have been happy to use view 7 or 8 just to see where my units were on the map, but then I would see the enemy too... That's when the thought hit me.

[Jack Carr]

I think that this would be a great feature. One that would very quickly find it's way into the "I never use it" category.

It would be much harder to play because units arriving on the scene would not have the advantage of having their orders issued from an "All Seeing" commander in the clouds. It certainly would take a player longer to issue orders if they absolutely had to know exactly where those enemy units were.

[Louie the Toad]

Noiseman,

I don't have trouble justifying using level 7 or 8 as a map. As company commander, the units I see on the map are the proverbial stick pins that my staff has placed, due to reports coming back to my HQ from the action. I only view these units, not manipulate them from 7/8 levels.

The "problem" with CM as you know, is that you are 'everyman' when you play and thus each of your units knows everything.

One idea to try would be a two level command structure where two players were on the same team. One would be the Operational Player, and the other the Tactical Player. The tactical player would have limited knowledge of the over all picture, and not be able to see/do more than the firefights he got into.

The Operational Player would not be able to see the firefights but only receive info about them from the Tactical Player. But the Operational Player would make the 'chess moves' that gave the Tactical Player his forces and placed friendly units in supporting positions. While I am wary about how BO or BB could handle this effectively it might be worth an experiment or two with a friendly player.

As for gaming satisfaction.. that remains to be seen.

Just a note about FTCR --

The most challenging application of FTCR I have ever played has been "Armor on the Boulevard". A terribly confusing maze of streets, keyhole shooting and surprises, even vs the AI.

Toad... on the lawn.