edward cameron Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I just finished this excellent book by Jason Mark on the 24th Panzer Division in Stalingrad, up until 20th Nov 1942. I think this book would be of great interest to players of CM BB. It provides detailed information on each day of the divisions activities, including casualties, as they fought through Stalingrad. I was particularly impressed with the divisional tactical summary on how a Panzer division should approach street fighting. I was also impressed by their comparitively low casualty rates. For example, during a full divisional assault on 27/9 into the suburbs, they lost 37 men killed with 212 wounded. When playing CMBB with much smaller units, I seem to suffer similar losses in men killed. The book is available through the "Death of the Leaping Horseman" web site. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Well.. the thing to remember about casualties is that people are usually a lot more reluctant to take risks when real people are getting killed & maimed... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crow Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I'd just like to say thank you for posting the info about this book, I have just ordered a copy, from the website it looks extremely interesting. Cheers! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Can someone post a link to that website? Sounds like an interesting book. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crow Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Death Of The Leaping Horseman As I said above I have only just ordered the book today, but from what I have seen on the website I had no hesitation in doing so (Stalingrad being the area which first piqued my interest in the Eastern Front). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 Originally posted by edward cameron: I was also impressed by their comparitively low casualty rates. For example, during a full divisional assault on 27/9 into the suburbs, they lost 37 men killed with 212 wounded. Far from it - this is actually a horrific casualty rate. It basically meant that one rifle battalion of the division was gone in a day, more or less. If you are extremely generous, by counting all battalions except the artillery in this division as rifle units (4 in the PzGR Rgt, 2 in the Panzer Rgt, 1 Recce, 1 Engineer, 1 AT, and 1 replacement), and you assume that some of the wounded can return to combat within days, even then the division could maintain this level of combat only for about 2 weeks before it would be a hollow shell of command staff and rear area services. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Just looked through the history of 12.PD, which helps to put these loss figures in some context. At the beginning of August 1942 it's two PzGren Rgt had the following strengths (Off/NCO/OR) PzGrRgt5 38/191/1066 (total 1,295) PzGrRgt25 34/129/880 (total 1,043) This includes the heavy weapon companies, the AT and IG companies, the four battalion and one regimental staff, which means that the actual number of riflemen was far lower than 2,338. There is no need for further analysis to show that losses on the scale outlined by you would be crippling if incurred just a few days running. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 I'm tempted to order, but Paypal will charge me 77 dollars for this gem. I am basically interested in knowing which subunits of the Divison were present in the Red Barricades fighting from 15 to 26 October 1942. Any chance of scanning the book for that info for me, pretty please? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Originally posted by edward cameron: For example, during a full divisional assault on 27/9 into the suburbs, they lost 37 men killed with 212 wounded. When playing CMBB with much smaller units, I seem to suffer similar losses in men killed. It's so amusing when people interpolate Reality from computer games. Now, if you knew the 37 dead? And 212 wounded to what extent? And that left how many soldiers fit for duty? And, given the German practice of drawing troops from the same towns, what would this mean for an area? Anyone who talks about unit casualties with a jolly 'Isn't that rather great? I achieved the same results with smaller units in CMBB' is only fit to command digital troops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Originally posted by Seanachai: ...only fit to command digital troops. Ahem....is anyone here claiming differently? :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Seanachai: ...only fit to command digital troops. Ahem....is anyone here claiming differently? :confused: </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward cameron Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 The units which were posted to southern area of Krasny Oktyabr on the 1st of November were the II/Panzergrenadier Regiment 21, II/Panzergrenadier Regiment 26, and Kradschutzen-Abteilung 4. Thanks to Jason Mark for this information. Regarding my comments on casualty levels suffered by the 24th Panzer division, no offence was intended. It was just that I had no real perception of how many casualties a Panzer division would suffer as a result of an assault on a suburban area. The only thing I had to compare it with was what I had observed in playing CM BB. This made me reflect on the fact that perhaps I was being a bit to remote to the suffering of my digital troops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I'm tempted to order, but Paypal will charge me 77 dollars for this gem. I am basically interested in knowing which subunits of the Divison were present in the Red Barricades fighting from 15 to 26 October 1942. Any chance of scanning the book for that info for me, pretty please? Since I presume you need this for a scenario, or sumfink, are you interested in the Soviet units or do you have that data? I have Chuikov's 'Stalingrad' at work today. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I'm tempted to order, but Paypal will charge me 77 dollars for this gem. I am basically interested in knowing which subunits of the Divison were present in the Red Barricades fighting from 15 to 26 October 1942. Any chance of scanning the book for that info for me, pretty please? Since I presume you need this for a scenario, or sumfink, are you interested in the Soviet units or do you have that data? I have Chuikov's 'Stalingrad' at work today. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Originally posted by edward cameron: The units which were posted to southern area of Krasny Oktyabr on the 1st of November were the II/Panzergrenadier Regiment 21, II/Panzergrenadier Regiment 26, and Kradschutzen-Abteilung 4. Thanks to Jason Mark for this information. . Red Barricades (Barrikady) is the one to the north of Red October. I was more interested in Red Barricades, if possible. I was also interested in the period 15-26 October rather than November. Thanks! [ June 10, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Bump for Andreas, cause, like, he just emailed me 'n stuff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Sorry Mike, they expected me to work. The cheek of it. Then in the evening I had to teach John and Kip how to play Skat. Digging the trench for the correct ambiente was a bit of an undertaking, and when we started cutting trees in the park for a bunker to play in they called the police, so I only got home late. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edward cameron Posted June 11, 2003 Author Share Posted June 11, 2003 Dear Michael Dorosh I was a bit confused about your question on the 24th Panzer division with respect to the Barrikady gun factory. According to Jason Mark's research, the 24th was fighting to the west and the north of Barrikady from the 15th to the 20th of October and were not involved in any direct assaults on the factory. They were then involved in mainly defensive actions and support until their move to the Red October steel works. It is difficult for me to describe what was happening at the time in such a short paragraph. I would strongly recommend you buy the book. It is full of aerial photographs and detailed maps and does such a good job of describing what the division was doing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Hi Edward; thanks for the reply. If the Division wasn't involved at Red Barricades, then there's no reason for me to spend 77 dollars I don't have on the book! I had thought their appearance there might have been slight, if at all. Thanks again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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