Sgt AA Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Interesting article about german defence taktic. Enjoy http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/Wray/wray.asp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Thanks. The title and subject strikes me as a bit strange though: 'Standing Fast: German Defensive Doctrine on the Russian Front During World War II Prewar to March 1943' Surely the Germans did a lot more defending on the Eastern front after March 1943 than before it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt AA Posted February 5, 2004 Author Share Posted February 5, 2004 But there was constantly russian counterattacks, so I think the german offensive was something like two step forwards and one step back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Besides the defenses after 43 were not that succesful... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Very interesting but rather odd article. Originally posted by Sgt AA: But there was constantly russian counterattacks, so I think the german offensive was something like two step forwards and one step back. Yes but the counterattacks were usually clumsy and disorganised, so German defensive tactics at that time can hardly be held up as decisive. Besides the defenses after 43 were not that succesful..Because the Russian attacks then were rather less clumsy and disorganised Honestly. I find it a vey wierd article. I read most, but not all of it, but from what I gleaned the author seems to say that US defensive doctrine could learn from the early German defensive tactics. Tactics which only really succeeded because the Soviets were (at that time) usually unrefined at offensive operations. When the Soviets learned how to attack properly (as well as other factors) the initial German defensive tactics proved to be unsound, and so had to develop new ones afterward; yet the author is analysing the earlier tactics which evolved during WW1 and attempting to apply validity to a modern (at the time) US:Soviet confrontation. Maybe I haven't read it properly or I'm just misinterpreting it but I think, although very interesting, it would have been more constructive to look at German defensive tactics after March 1943. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by Ant: Maybe I haven't read it properly or I'm just misinterpreting it but I think, although very interesting, it would have been more constructive to look at German defensive tactics after March 1943. The article focusses with the necessity of defense while on the attack. Defense after losing the strategical initiative is another topic. No article has to deal with all topics. You can learn from errors. Best if it ain't your errors. The article told me that a) Even when on attack - be prepared to defend so you don't waste your offensive resources. the top brass was over confident and ignored the necessity of sound defense tactics and was ill-prepared for defenses - Strategic goals were prioritized vs operational necessities. c) Tanks can not defend themselves - attach infantry to them d) Tanks should not wait for the infantry to kill the enemy tanks and then attack. The grunts need some help. Either the tanks or specialized TD. e) You need enough infantry frontline strength f) Have enough reserves ready. g) Dig in h) Don't give up strategic initiative if you don't have prepared positions. i) It is best to attack operationally but defend tactically. Yet it is not a Panzerfibel with a few easy lessons. The article presents facts. The reader has to read it carefully and think about it. In a discussion with "Patton-style" officers, it is a help for those who defend the more cautious approach. Gruß Joachim BTW: Great link! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Yet it is not a Panzerfibel with a few easy lessons. The article presents facts. The reader has to read it carefully and think about it.What? I had to read it and think about it properly? :eek: ..... Thanks Joachim. I made the mistake of trying to read it all when I probably didn't have enough time to do so and just 'skimmed' it. Just another sad victim of our 'attention span deficient' society 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by Ant: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yet it is not a Panzerfibel with a few easy lessons. The article presents facts. The reader has to read it carefully and think about it.What? I had to read it and think about it properly? :eek: ..... Thanks Joachim. I made the mistake of trying to read it all when I probably didn't have enough time to do so and just 'skimmed' it. Just another sad victim of our 'attention span deficient' society </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt AA Posted February 5, 2004 Author Share Posted February 5, 2004 "The German Army's defensive methods were derived from four basic principles: depth, maneuver, firepower, and counterattack. Through all the variations in defensive methods, these principles continued to guide German commanders in conducting their operations. German units sought to create depth by every means possible, including the distribution of heavy weapons in depth, the construction of rearward defenses, and even the commitment of service troops to combat when necessary. As one German officer wrote after the war, "Depth of the friendly positions is always more important than density."" I should try to keep this in mind when I create my next senario. I guess that a 6 km map is enough to give the russians a hard time 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conscript Bagger Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by Ant: ...it would have been more constructive to look at German defensive tactics after March 1943. Like this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt AA Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 Thanks for the tip, so much interesting stuff to read and so little time My guess is that the general they refer to is Heinrici. It's only two possibly alternativs, right? Heinrici, Colonel-General Gotthard (1886-1971): 33-37: Chief ? Section Ministry of War 37 : Head Replacement & Army Affairs Office Ministry of War 37-40: General Officer Commanding 16th Division 40 : Acting General Officer Commanding VII Corps 40 : In reserve 40 : Acting General Officer Commanding XII Corps 40-42: General Officer Commanding XXXXIII Corps 42-44: General Officer Commanding 4th Army, Eastern Front 44 : In reserve 44-45: General Officer Commanding 1st Panzer Army, Eastern Front 45 : Commander in Chief Army Group Weichsel 45-48: Prisoner of War Tippelskirch, General of Infantry Kurt von (1891-1957): 38-41: Quartermaster-General IV 42 : General Officer Commanding 30th Division 42-43: German Liaison Officer to 8th Italian Army, Eastern Front 43-44: General Officer Commanding XII 44 : Acting General Officer Commanding 4th Army, Eastern Front 44 : Deputy General Officer Commanding 1st Army, France 44-45: Acting General Officer Commanding 14th Army, Italy 45 : Acting General Officer Commanding 21st Army 45 : Acting Commander in Chief Army Group Weichsel 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtcm Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Quickly, someone design a Jan 42, "Defend the strongpoint" CMBB operation ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt AA Posted February 11, 2004 Author Share Posted February 11, 2004 I'm currently working on a map (in Mapping Mission) over Cholm (Kholm). It´s based on information from this site: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/campaign_awards/shields/cholm_files/cholmbattle.htm Could be plenty of opportunitis for defence battles there Would appreciate tips on more detailed maps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtcm Posted February 13, 2004 Share Posted February 13, 2004 If anyone wants to playtest, I have a 60+ minute battle, "German Battn in rearguard, Dec. 1941" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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