Kalvin Square, Pest [scenario for testing at TPG]

[Bannon DC]

Hello all --

UPDATE, Oct. 28, 2007

This scenario is ready for playtesting at The Proving Grounds. Needs a good head-to-head or Germans vs AI playtest. (I will probably end up making a separate AI version of this one, comments helpful.) More details below with 10/28 posting.

Kalvin Square at TPG

Approximate scope of map:

Google Image

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

Working on a scale map of this section of Pest. I'm seeking details of the fighting in the area... type of units involved, numbers, etc.

I'm reading "The Siege of Budapest" by Krisztian Ungvary. He mentions "a combat group of the 13th Panzer Division" surrounded near Kalvin Square with various attempts to rescue it resulting in failure.

This section of Pest was crucial... located between two major bridges and opposite Gellert Hegy on the Buda bank. Gellert has a fortress on top of it and could oversee all action in Pest just a few hundred meters away. The action occured just a few days before the final pull out of Pest and the destruction of the last remaining bridge over the Danube.

If you have any details, please let me know.

Thanks,

Bannon

[ October 28, 2007, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Bannon DC ]

[bardosy]

Hello Bannon!

I could share an original 1940 map of Budapest. This is good for the street names. And - if you need - I could show you the Kalvin Square in Google Map, how actually looks like.

Budapest1944 #1

Budapest1944 #2 You need this one (right upper corner)

Budapest1944 #3

Budapest1944 #4

Kalvin Square actually

BTW, Gellért Hegy is a hill, not a fortress. In that hill there is a fortress, named "Citadella".

(There was a blood-pump close combat, as you read in Ungvary's book. The Germans knew, if Citadella lost, Buda Castle lot too)

[ March 27, 2007, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: bardosy ]

[Bannon DC]

Thanks, Bardosy.

I have the 1944 map. You were kind enough to share with me when I was working on my Margit Island map.

Regarding Margit Island, Ungvary has a great first-person account from a Lt. Lootz where he drives an armored vehicle with a gun in tow through the Russian line to the medieval chapel. They ready the gun and fire at a mortar section, remount it and race back through to their lines. Later in the day, the do the same thing again but without the gun. Crazy! Since I have alread made the map, I will work on a scenario for this one.

He also mentions two assault guns that joined the fight on the German/Hungarian side. These were bogged in snow. Do you know if these were German or Hungarian assualt guns?\

BTW -- if anyone is interested, here is a link to the Margit Island operation. Currently it is at TPG.

EDIT -- while I'm here, I'll update this link. This operation was moved over to TSD a little while ago. New link: Margit Island at TSD

[ October 28, 2007, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Bannon DC ]

[bardosy]

I really didn't understand Ungvary in that case. He wrote about two note from Lt. Loótz. Once Loótz rembember when Russian-Hungarian red captain Steinmetz come from South on avenue Üllői. This note is refused by Ungvary because Loótz couldn't see - in Ungrvary's opinion - cpt Steinmetz. But later - in the Margit Island - Ungvary told this stroy without problems.

I really can believe much more the first story then the second one. (I believe the second one too, but I don't understand why Ungvary didn't believe the first one).

I think you couldn't make a CM scenario for this story, becasue CM engine is not designed to this real stories and uncommon heroism. I read a lot of same story about heroism and tried to design scenario in CMBB, but I failed.

A friend of mine is the son of the Hungarian paratroopers' company CO. (You can read about him (cpt Ugron) in Ungvary's book). And they (paratroopers from Division St Laszló) made a lot of great action near Budapest. You can read the story, when they are so expert - and Russians knew it - they didn't use their Panzerfaust, just show it to the Russian tank commanders, and the T-34s retreated... And when cpt Ugron wounded in action, the German CO visit him in the hospital and gave a gift: a piece of a Russian report. The Russian report said "we are in fight with a whole Hungarian Division" (but they fought with only the paratroopers company).

BTW, do you need any information about Kalvin Square?

[Bannon DC]

Regarding Kalvin Square --

I was hoping to get more details on the fighting in the area. I have a couple of good maps which show the battle lines.

The other detailed map is one I believe you have. 2003, maybe from a university course. Maybe the author: Mihalyi Balazs.

What I need is more info on the types of units on each side and the number of troops, tanks, etc. involved.

Ungvary mentions several counterattacks. But at the same time, I think the order may have already been given to retreat from Pest. This is around Jan 16 and 17.

I was also wondering about the trams/street cars. Did Budapest have a subway at this time? I know the city had a well-developed street car system in '44/'45. My guess is the track symbols on the map are for street cars, not subway.

Thanks,

Bannon

[Bannon DC]

Speaking of that map above... can you translate the legend? I translated part of it at one time but many of the military terms are not in online dictionaries. (I had to do it in two parts)

thanks!!!

[Bannon DC]

[Kineas]

Német = German

magyar = Hungarian

szovjet = Soviet

román = Romanian

hadosztály = division

páncélos = armored

rohamtüzér = I think assault gun unit

csoport = group

lövész hadosztály = rifle division

lovas = cavalry

ezred = regiment

zászlóalj = battalion

század = company

[bardosy]

hadtest = corps

huszár = hussair

légvédelmi tüzér = AAA

egység helyzete ismert az ostrom alatt = unit location known in the siege

egység helyzete nem ismert az ostrom alatt = unit location not known in the siege

Német hatósági központ = German Authority Center

Nyilasház = Arrow-cross (hungarian nazi) house

Gyűjtőtábor = compound (for jews)

Kivégzési helyszínek = Location of executation

Ejtőernyőtartály ledobó hely = Para supply LZ

Szükségrepülőtér = Emergency airlanding site

[bardosy]

Szántó, rét = plain, marsch

Szőlő, gyümölcsös = Vinery, (fruit trees?)

Erdő, park = forest, park

Lakóterület = Residential Area

Budapesti gettó területe = Ghetto (compound for jews) location

Iprai terület = industrial zone

[bardosy]

Szántó, rét = plain, marsch

Szölö, gyümölcsös = Vinery, (fruit trees) ?

Erdő, park = forest, park

Lakóterület = Residential Area

Budapesti gettó területe = Ghetto (compound) location

Iprai terület = industrial zone

[bardosy]

Budapest határa 1945-ben = Budapest's border in 1945

A szovjet csapatok átlat elért vonal a tárgynapon 19:00-ig = Soviet troops arrive this line in marked day hrs 1900.

A kitörés után bekerített csapatok feltételezett állásai = after the breakthrough, surrounded troops possible locations.

[bardosy]

Az Attila-vonal állásai = Attila-line (defense/fortified line)

Budapesten belüli megerösített állások = fortified lines in Budap.

Gyalogsági állások = infantry lines

Aknazár úton = minelock on road

...sikeres támadás = successful attack

...Visszavonulás = retreat

Kitörési irányok = breakthrough directions

Kilött vagy elhagyott ... harckocsi, rohamlöveg = Destroyed or abandoned tank, assault gun

Légvédelmi üteg = AA battery

(Sorry for the multiple posts, but Forum Engine could't post in one.)

[bardosy]

Az Attila-vonal állásai = Attila-line (defense/fortified line)

Budapesten belüli megerösített állások = fortified lines in Budap.

Gyalogsági állások = infantry lines

Aknazár úton = minelock on road

...sikeres támadás = successful attack

...Visszavonulás = retreat

Kitörési irányok = breakthrough directions

Kilött vagy elhagyott ... harckocsi, rohamlöveg = Destroyed or abandoned tank, assault gun

Légvédelmi üteg = AA battery

(Sorry for the multiple posts, but Forum Engine could't post in one.)

[Bannon DC]

Excellent... thanks, guys. Very helpful.

[Bannon DC]

Bumping... still seeking details on this action. Anyone?

thanks

[Mudhugger]

Bannon DC:

If you haven't seen this.

The Red Army Studies site has an article, nothing specific to Kalvin Square but covers entire offensive generally. It's in 11/1984 in their listings. Can be irritatingly slow downloading sometimes.

Or try this:

http://www.redarmystudies.net/smhj/1984/1984_11.pdf

[Sergei]

Good find, Mudhugger. Just remember that you have to be more careful when reading Soviet era histories. There can be glaring inaccuracies, especially concerning enemy activities ("our tank division had to stop for a day to annihilate a Fascist tank corps" when there were no Axis armour nearby etc).

[Bannon DC]

Thanks, Mudhugger

Worth reading. Entertaining to see those clunky examples of Soviet certitude. This one was near the leading section:

"The Hungarian Communist Party, which expressed the true aspirations of the workers, took a position of internationalism. The birth of a partisan movement began in the country with the approach of the Soviet forces. It was headed by the communists."

[Bannon DC]

UPDATE, Oct. 28, 2007

This scenario is ready for playtesting at The Proving Grounds. Needs a good head-to-head or Germans vs AI playtest. (I will probably end up making a separate AI version of this one, comments helpful.)

Kalvin Square at TPG

Approximate scope of map:

Google Image

This one MUST be played BLIND if playing 2-player.

The siege of Budapest has witnessed intense, non-stop street fighting. The routine has been attack and counter-attack. As the Germans and Hungarians have fewer and fewer men to hold the line, the fighting on the Pest side of the Danube River is reaching its conclusion. As of January 16, the Axis forces are within a few blocks of the river and two battered bridges are the last connections between Pest and Buda. For the units fighting near Kalvin Square, Erzsebet Bridge is a vital link for reinforcements... and eventual retreat.

A new defensive line has been established at Muzeum Blvd. Fighting over the last two days south of Kalvin Square along Üllöi Ave has exposed the Axis flank forcing a withdraw.

The Soviets are preparing to continue the advance with the goal of capturing a bridge intact or to cut off the retreat of as many Axis forces as possible.

Overlooking the Pest battlefield from across the Danube is the citadel atop of Gellert Hegy. In stark contract to Pest with its flat terrain, Buda is hilly and rugged and has been a natural stronghold against numerous invasions through the centuries. During this invasion, commanders look down on Pest through binoculars and call in artillery on the enemy below.

Map, battle lines are historically accurate. OOB is guesswork. Suggest playing H2H if possible, if not, Axis vs AI with modifications as suggested in the brief.